Tolkien and Handel's _Messiah_

[Sean]

Listening to a recording of Tolkien himself reciting the eagle's
message to the people of Minas Tirith announcing the fall of Sauron,
it reminded me of Handel's Messiah.

Here is Tolkien's text interleaved with lines from the Messiah;
the similarity is remarkable:

Sean_Q_

...out of the East there came a great Eagle flying,
and he bore tidings beyond hope from the Lords of the West, crying:

And lo! the angel of the Lord came upon them
And the angel said unto them,
Fear not; for behold I bring you good tidings of great joy,

Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,
for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,

Comfort ye my people, saith your God;
speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem; and cry unto her,
that her warfare is accomplished.

and the Dark Tower is thrown down.

The people that walked in darkness
have seen a great light;
and they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death,
upon them hath the light shined.

Sing and rejoice, ye people of the Tower of Guard,
for your watch hath not been in vain,

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion
Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, thy King cometh unto thee!

and the Black Gate is broken,

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

and your King hath passed through,
and he is victorious.

Lift up your heads, O ye gates;
and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors;
and the King of glory shall come in.

Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you all the days of your life.

The kingdom of this world is become the kingdom
of our Lord, and of His Christ:
and He shall reign for ever and ever.

And the Tree that was withered shall be renewed,

The trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,

and he shall plant it in the high places,

O thou that tellest good tidings to Zion,
get thee up into the high mountain

and the City shall be blessed.

Say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!
Arise, shine, for thy light is come
and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.

Sing all ye people!

Hallelujah!

[Phlip]

Post by Sean
Listening to a recording of Tolkien himself reciting the eagle's
message to the people of Minas Tirith announcing the fall of Sauron,
it reminded me of Handel's Messiah.

Damn good catch!

May I ask if a sample of either is available online? (Note to defenders of
intellectual property; fair use includes brief citations, as for reviews...)

"And the people sang in all the ways of the city."

The word "ways" is ambiguous to save space and increase impact. It means
both "streets and paths", and "styles of singing"...

[Sean]

Post by Phlip

Post by Sean
Listening to a recording of Tolkien himself reciting

Damn good catch!
May I ask if a sample of either is available online?

I don't know; I heard it on the DVD documentary _JRR Tolkien,
Master of the Rings_, 2001 by Eagle Media/Cromwell Productions.

www.eaglevisionusa.com
www.eaglevision-int.com

Sean_Q_

[Speaking Clock]

Post by Sean
Listening to a recording of Tolkien himself reciting the eagle's
message to the people of Minas Tirith announcing the fall of Sauron,
it reminded me of Handel's Messiah.
Here is Tolkien's text interleaved with lines from the Messiah;

Good call. And here are the biblical references that Handel drew upon
when he composed the Messiah.

Post by Sean
...out of the East there came a great Eagle flying,
And lo! the angel of the Lord came upon them
And the angel said unto them,
Fear not; for behold I bring you good tidings of great joy,

Luke ch 2 v 10

Post by Sean
Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,
for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,
Comfort ye my people, saith your God;
speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem; and cry unto her,
that her warfare is accomplished.

Isaiah ch 40 v 2

Post by Sean
and the Dark Tower is thrown down.
The people that walked in darkness
have seen a great light;
and they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death,
upon them hath the light shined.

Isaiah ch 9 v 2

Post by Sean
Sing and rejoice, ye people of the Tower of Guard,
for your watch hath not been in vain,
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion
Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, thy King cometh unto thee!

Zachariah ch 9 v 9

Post by Sean
and the Black Gate is broken,
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Psalm 2 v 9

Post by Sean
and your King hath passed through,
and he is victorious.
Lift up your heads, O ye gates;
and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors;
and the King of glory shall come in.

Psalm 24 v 7

Post by Sean
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you all the days of your life.
The kingdom of this world is become the kingdom
and He shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelations ch 11 v 15

Post by Sean
And the Tree that was withered shall be renewed,
The trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,

I Corinthians ch 15 v 52

Post by Sean
and he shall plant it in the high places,
O thou that tellest good tidings to Zion,
get thee up into the high mountain

Isaiah ch 40 v 9

Post by Sean
and the City shall be blessed.
Say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!
Arise, shine, for thy light is come
and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.

also Isaiah ch 40 v 9

Post by Sean
Sing all ye people!
Hallelujah!

Take your pick from any number of biblical references for Hallelujah!

[Derek Broughton]

Post by Speaking Clock

Post by Sean
Listening to a recording of Tolkien himself reciting the eagle's
message to the people of Minas Tirith announcing the fall of Sauron,
it reminded me of Handel's Messiah.
Here is Tolkien's text interleaved with lines from the Messiah;

Good call. And here are the biblical references that Handel drew upon
when he composed the Messiah.

All of which have been public domain for many centuries :-) and available
at project Gutenberg.

[pmhilton]

Post by Speaking Clock
And here are the biblical references that Handel drew upon

Post by Speaking Clock
when he composed the Messiah.

All of which have been public domain for many centuries :-) and available
at project Gutenberg.

And, as is quite often the casee, misquoted even here.

Pete H

[Derek Broughton]

Post by pmhilton

Post by Speaking Clock
And here are the biblical references that Handel drew upon

Post by Speaking Clock
when he composed the Messiah.

All of which have been public domain for many centuries :-) and
available at project Gutenberg.

And, as is quite often the casee, misquoted even here.

You just flamed Larry for supposedly adding nothing to the conversation, and
have the nerve to say this? If there's a misquote, why not provide the
correct ones?

[pmhilton]

Derek Broughton wrote:
If there's a misquote, why not provide the

Post by Derek Broughton
correct ones?

It's one of the most common mis-citations. The Christian Bible has no
"Revelations," it's "Revelation," and some would say it's more properly
titled "The Apocalypse of John of Patmos."

Yeah, I know apocalypse means revelation, but so many folks step outside
the proper frame of apocalyptic writings and thereby hangs a
mis-directed tale.

Pete H

[Derek Broughton]

Post by Derek Broughton
If there's a misquote, why not provide the

Post by Derek Broughton
correct ones?

It's one of the most common mis-citations.

Then that's what you should have said. "Misquote" (the word you used)
implies that the content was incorrect, not the citation.

Post by Derek Broughton
The Christian Bible has no
"Revelations," it's "Revelation," and some would say it's more properly
titled "The Apocalypse of John of Patmos."

No, it would never be properly _cited_ as "The Apocalypse of John of
Patmos". That might be an exact description of what it _is_ but has not
been used as the title of the book in any version of the Bible I've read
(almost all of Google's matches are for citations to a specific book
_about_ "Revelations".

In any case, the Book of Revelation, is colloquially known as "Revelations",
and calling it so hardly makes for either a misquote or a mis-citation
(except in scholarly work).

[pmhilton]

Derek Broughton wrote:

"is colloquially known as . . . . "

Therein lies the downfall of nearly all common-folk attributions of
Biblical materials to most situtation; and "colloquially known as ..."
pretty much opens the door to wild supposition, unsupported &
unsupportable guesswork and (often) devious chicanery.

Note here this thread began with Tolkien; it should remain at least
somewhat related to his work. Although being a devout Roman Catholic,
Tolkien strongly eschewed allegory (one basic element of apocalyptic
writing) and likewise never in his glorious tale-telling did he make
overt use of Biblical material other than in the sense, as Joseph
Campbell would have pointed out, that some themes are so fundamental to
the human condition that parallels or outright direct relationships will
be found by those not recognizing the universality of those themes.
(Note the overworking of real and imagined parallels with Wagner's
operas elsewhere in this NG. )

A parallel situation, which can be pretty well documented in all its
manifestations is the recent daVinci plague. Rather like finding arcane
messages in crop circles but with all the players out front. Quite
amusing, but rathermore frightening in that so many gullible dupes are
ready to run with the latest "true & final word."

To circle back to my own revulsion of the common uses of "Revelation" to
summarize or even evoke "Armageddon," these folk do not realize that Ar
- Meggido (Battle at Meggido) has already taken place; read your
Josephus. The "battle at the end of the world [end times]" that some
fervently fear/desire took place 2000+/- years ago. The "end time" that
messianic writings speak of has nothing to do with historic or even
geologic time scales; Thomas of Aquinas would be of more help here than
John of Patmos.

Pete H

[Derek Broughton]

Post by pmhilton
"is colloquially known as . . . . "
Therein lies the downfall of nearly all common-folk attributions of
Biblical materials to most situtation; and "colloquially known as ..."
pretty much opens the door to wild supposition, unsupported &
unsupportable guesswork and (often) devious chicanery.

Followed by a long rant that does nothing to support his assertion that
citing a text as being from "Revelations" makes it somehow wrong - or that
either Handel or Tolkien did not use a text from "The Revelation of St.
John. Asserting colloquial knowledge as truth is hazardous; citing a text
using it's common name is not. It's about as bad as, in my line of work,
saying that the cod stocks are low, instead of saying that /Gadus Morhua/
is threatened.

[Larry Swain]

Post by pmhilton
"is colloquially known as . . . . "
Therein lies the downfall of nearly all common-folk attributions of
Biblical materials to most situtation; and "colloquially known as ..."
pretty much opens the door to wild supposition, unsupported &
unsupportable guesswork and (often) devious chicanery.

In the case of a misspelling? Please, I think you protest too much.

Post by pmhilton
Note here this thread began with Tolkien; it should remain at least
somewhat related to his work.

So why in this long post haven't you followed your own dictum?

Although being a devout Roman Catholic,

Post by pmhilton
Tolkien strongly eschewed allegory (one basic element of apocalyptic
writing) and likewise never in his glorious tale-telling did he make
overt use of Biblical material other than in the sense, as Joseph
Campbell would have pointed out, that some themes are so fundamental to
the human condition that parallels or outright direct relationships will
be found by those not recognizing the universality of those themes.
(Note the overworking of real and imagined parallels with Wagner's
operas elsewhere in this NG. )

Yes and no. He eschewed allegory as a genre of literature. Allegory as
a literary device makes use of certain symbolisms, and Tolkien's
fictions are full of such symbolisms, including typology.

Post by pmhilton
To circle back to my own revulsion of the common uses of "Revelation" to
summarize or even evoke "Armageddon," these folk do not realize that Ar
- Meggido (Battle at Meggido) has already taken place; read your
Josephus. The "battle at the end of the world [end times]" that some
fervently fear/desire took place 2000+/- years ago. The "end time" that
messianic writings speak of has nothing to do with historic or even
geologic time scales; Thomas of Aquinas would be of more help here than
John of Patmos.
Pete H

If you want to be literal about then Pete H, there were many battles in
the Megiddo valley, so why you choose particularly the one recorded by
Josephus is beyond me, and the historicity of those battles does not
preclude the visionary of the Apocalypse from positing another such
battle. In fact the text of the Apocalypse itself if we read this text
historically (I don't btw, I believe that it is a-historical) makes it
quite clear that these events are future. So unless you think that the
Apocalypse was written pre-70 AD and happen to be a preterist, I don't
find your objection here very factual.

I wonder too where you translating "Ar-Megiddo" as Battle of Medggido.
First, the text says that they gathered at a PLACE called Harmedgiddo in
Hebrew, so while we use Armageddon to refer to a battle, the text of the
Apocalypse uses it to refer to the place. Are you translating the Ar-
element as "battle?" In that case, it would be incorrect. If the Greek
text of the Apocalypse is rendering Hebrew in some way, the "har" must
come from Hebrew Har, which means mountain, hill country, not battle.
The word for battle is milhamah. But most commentators on the Greek
text take it as a "mystic" name, not really referring to Hebrew at all.

In any case, quite apart from what you take the Apocalypse to be
referring to, the question was whether or not the citation of a
particular passage in the Apocalypse as filtered through Handel's
Messiah may have been an influence on a passage in Tolkien. You've
added nothing to that conversation.

[Larry Swain]

Post by Derek Broughton

Post by Derek Broughton
If there's a misquote, why not provide the

Post by Derek Broughton
correct ones?

It's one of the most common mis-citations.

Then that's what you should have said. "Misquote" (the word you used)
implies that the content was incorrect, not the citation.

Post by Derek Broughton
The Christian Bible has no
"Revelations," it's "Revelation," and some would say it's more properly
titled "The Apocalypse of John of Patmos."

No, it would never be properly _cited_ as "The Apocalypse of John of
Patmos". That might be an exact description of what it _is_ but has not
been used as the title of the book in any version of the Bible I've read
(almost all of Google's matches are for citations to a specific book
_about_ "Revelations".
In any case, the Book of Revelation, is colloquially known as "Revelations",
and calling it so hardly makes for either a misquote or a mis-citation
(except in scholarly work).

Even in scholarly work, it isn't a mis-citation, since it doesn't point
to another work or another place in the work than where the quotation
occurs. It is a misspelling (cause by a typo perhaps, or
misunderstanding), pure and simple, and one readily identified as such.

[Speaking Clock]

Post by Derek Broughton
If there's a misquote, why not provide the

Post by Derek Broughton
correct ones?

It's one of the most common mis-citations. The Christian Bible has no
"Revelations," it's "Revelation,"

Actually, that was just a proof-reading error because I didn't have my
glasses on.

[Larry Swain]

Post by Derek Broughton
If there's a misquote, why not provide the

Post by Derek Broughton
correct ones?

It's one of the most common mis-citations. The Christian Bible has no
"Revelations," it's "Revelation," and some would say it's more properly
titled "The Apocalypse of John of Patmos."

But it isn't a "misciation". The quotation is correct, the reference is
correct. What is incorrect is the orthography of "Revelations". If you
are going to criticize another's work, might I suggest that you bother
to make sure that your criticism is actually correct?

If one wanted to be technical, the title of the work given in the
majority of manuscripts and papyri is (transliterated)APOKALUPSIS
IWANNOU; or if we follow a typical ancient style for naming documents
(taking the first three or four words of the work)APOKALUPSIS IHSOU
CHRISTOU. Even the Latin Vulgate has Apocalypsis as the title.

You might be intersted to know that most modern dictionaries have an
entry for Revelations and refer one back to Revelation--i. e. it is a
common enough misspelling to make it into the reference tools. It is a
misspelling by the way that's been around almost as long as the King
James Bible, first appearing about 1650, less than 2 centuries after the
book iteself becomes known in English as "Reuelacioun." Doesn't make it
right, but hardly to excite comment.

In fact, hardly worth exciting comment from someone who just criticized
me for adding nothing to the conversation--one wonders just what your
accusation about miscitation, erroneous though it is, adds to the
conversation? Nothing that I can see. I note that Derek for one seems
to have reached the same conclusion.

Post by Derek Broughton
Yeah, I know apocalypse means revelation, but so many folks step outside
the proper frame of apocalyptic writings and thereby hangs a
mis-directed tale.

Which has nothing to do with the topic at hand, or whether the
misspelling was intentional or accidental, or whether the text cited
influenced Tolkien, and I very much doubt that you know much about the
proper frame of apocalyptic writings. But more on that in the next post.

[Larry Swain]

Post by Sean
Listening to a recording of Tolkien himself reciting the eagle's
message to the people of Minas Tirith announcing the fall of Sauron,
it reminded me of Handel's Messiah.
Here is Tolkien's text interleaved with lines from the Messiah;

The similarities you detect are because both Handel and Tolkien are
drawing on the same sources: Old Testament Poetry. The Eagle's Song
there is directly modeled on the Psalms in particular.

[pmhilton]

Larry Swain wrote:
"...directly modeled on the Psalms..."

A sufficiently broad field for nearly any immaginable action to be
played out. More simply put, you haven't said anything at all.

Pete H

[Larry Swain]

Post by pmhilton
"...directly modeled on the Psalms..."
A sufficiently broad field for nearly any immaginable action to be
played out. More simply put, you haven't said anything at all.
Pete H

Yes I did. I said that Handel's Messiah is an unlikely influence on
Tolkien's "Song of the Eagle". Read more carefully next time.

Apparently though I said more than you. How is what you have written in
the above cited message helpful to anyone in the thread? Not in any way
that I can see.

[Öjevind Lång]

Post by Larry Swain

Listening to a recording of Tolkien himself reciting the eagle's message
to the people of Minas Tirith announcing the fall of Sauron, it reminded
me of Handel's Messiah. Here is Tolkien's text interleaved with lines
from the Messiah;

The similarities you detect are because both Handel and Tolkien are
drawing on the same sources: Old Testament Poetry. The Eagle's Song there
is directly modeled on the Psalms in particular.

I think the parallels between Handel and the Eagle's message are so close
that it is valid to suspect that Tolkien was influenced by Handel's
"Messiah".

Öjevind

[Larry Swain]

Post by Öjevind Lång

Post by Larry Swain

Listening to a recording of Tolkien himself reciting the eagle's message
to the people of Minas Tirith announcing the fall of Sauron, it reminded
me of Handel's Messiah. Here is Tolkien's text interleaved with lines
from the Messiah;

The similarities you detect are because both Handel and Tolkien are
drawing on the same sources: Old Testament Poetry. The Eagle's Song there
is directly modeled on the Psalms in particular.

I think the parallels between Handel and the Eagle's message are so close
that it is valid to suspect that Tolkien was influenced by Handel's
"Messiah".
Öjevind

Hey Ojevind,

I don't, for 2 reasons. Number one, Handel is setting to music Biblical
passages taken not just from the Bible, but specifically from Advent,
Christmas, Holy Week, and Ascension liturgy, passages that Tolkien both
as a medievalist and as an almost life-long devout Roman Catholic would
have been intimately familiar with. Let's take some examples:

Tolkien:
.out of the East there came a great Eagle flying,
Handel

Post by Öjevind Lång
And lo! the angel of the Lord came upon them
And the angel said unto them,
Fear not; for behold I bring you good tidings of great joy,

Douay Rheims: And the angel said to them: Fear not; for, behold, I bring
you good tidings of great joy, that shall be to all the people

Lk 2:10 is part of the Christmas morning liturgy or the Christmas Eve
vigil (midnight mass).

You might compare Is. 52:7 too:
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good
tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that
publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

Tolkien:
Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,
for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,

Handel:
Comfort ye my people, saith your God;
speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem; and cry unto her,
that her warfare is accomplished.

DR: BE comforted, be comforted, my people, saith your God. 2 Speak ye to
the heart of Jerusalem, and call to her: for her evil is come to an end,
her iniquity is forgiven (Is. 41:1-2a)

This passage likewise is part of the Christmas vigil liturgy.

Tolkien:

and the Dark Tower is thrown down.

Handel:
The people that walked in darkness
have seen a great light;
and they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death,
upon them hath the light shined.

DR: The people that walked in darkness, have seen a great light: to them
that dwelt in the region of the shadow of death, light is risen. (Is.
9:2) Gets hit twice a year: Christmas Vigil and again in early FEb in
the Matthew cycle of readings since Matthew quotes this at the beginning
of Jesus' ministry in chap. 4.

Tolkien:
Sing and rejoice, ye people of the Tower of Guard,
for your watch hath not been in vain,

Handel:
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion
Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, thy King cometh unto thee!

DR: Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Sion, shout for joy, O daughter of
Jerusalem: BEHOLD THY KING will come to thee, (Zech 9:9)

This one is from the Palm Sunday liturgy, Jesus riding into Jerusalem on
an ass.

I might also point to Ps. 130:6
My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning:
I say, more than they that watch for the morning.

Tolkien:
and the Black Gate is broken,

Handel:
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

DR: Thou shalt rule them with a rod of iron, and shalt break them in
pieces like a potter's vessel. (Ps. 2:9)

This passage is read at the beginning of Jesus' ministry and also of
Christ entrhoned, Christ the King.

See also Apocalypse 2:27, 12:5, and 19:15

I have to wrap this up and move on to other posts and actually maybe
even some of my own work. But, this quick survey should be enough to
demonstrate my point: all the passages from Handel are in fact passages
from the liturgy set to music. IN a pre-recording age, or largely
pre-recording age, when listending to Handel's Messiah was not readily
available on radio, through album, etc, it is just as likely if not more
likely that the influence we detect has more to do with the repetition
of the Roman Catholic liturgy (Tolkien as a child and an adult (with a
hiatus during his college years) did attend daily mass in which one
hears the Bible in a year, plus the fact that all these passages occur
at key points in the liturgical year. You'll also note the similarity
of language between the Douay-Rheims translation, the one that Tolkien
would have been familiar with in English (though he undoubtedly knew
these texts in Latin just as well), and Handel's language from the KJV
and Psalter in the Book of Common Prayer as he knew it in the 18th
century. All in all, I'd bet my money on a heavy Roman Catholic
influence on Tolkien here rather than Handel (though admittedly we can't
make a sharp and absolute wall dividing them).

Larry Swain

[Derek Broughton]

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Öjevind Lång
I think the parallels between Handel and the Eagle's message are so close
that it is valid to suspect that Tolkien was influenced by Handel's
"Messiah".

I don't, for 2 reasons. Number one, Handel is setting to music Biblical
passages taken not just from the Bible, but specifically from Advent,

...

Post by Larry Swain
IN a pre-recording age, or largely
pre-recording age, when listending to Handel's Messiah was not readily
available on radio, through album, etc, it is just as likely if not more
likely that the influence we detect has more to do with the repetition
of the Roman Catholic liturgy

I'm not as familiar with Messiah as I should be (having heard various family
members singing it for decades), so I think it depends just how closely
these passages appear together in Messiah. Handel's Messiah was extremely
well known in Tolkien's day - there's no reason that he would be unfamiliar
with it. I recognize all those passages both through the liturgy and
through Messiah, and it doesn't seem unlikely to me that he would too.

[Larry Swain]

Post by Derek Broughton

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Öjevind Lång
I think the parallels between Handel and the Eagle's message are so close
that it is valid to suspect that Tolkien was influenced by Handel's
"Messiah".

I don't, for 2 reasons. Number one, Handel is setting to music Biblical
passages taken not just from the Bible, but specifically from Advent,

...

Post by Larry Swain
IN a pre-recording age, or largely
pre-recording age, when listending to Handel's Messiah was not readily
available on radio, through album, etc, it is just as likely if not more
likely that the influence we detect has more to do with the repetition
of the Roman Catholic liturgy

I'm not as familiar with Messiah as I should be (having heard various family
members singing it for decades), so I think it depends just how closely
these passages appear together in Messiah. Handel's Messiah was extremely
well known in Tolkien's day - there's no reason that he would be unfamiliar
with it. I recognize all those passages both through the liturgy and
through Messiah, and it doesn't seem unlikely to me that he would too.

Was it? I can only speak from my own experience. When I was a lad, one
heard some of the Messiah at the high holidays, but as an RC growing up,
not so much. Sure, I knew who Handel was, I'd heard the entirety of the
Messiah and knew what it was about. A number of decades on, Handel is
everywhere during the holiday season, again not so much among the RC
people of my acquaintance, but seems a whole lot more popular now than
when I was younger.

So of course Tolkien knew who Handel was, had heard the Messiah,
probably more than once. But we do know that he heard the Christmas
liturgy every year of his life, plus working with those texts
professionally (by which I mean when you work with medieval religious
texts such as the Ancrene Wisse or the Pearl and the like you read the
Bible in almost every line since these texts are steeped in it.). It
just seems more likely to me that as an RC growing up in the age when
recordings were few that the Eagle's Song is more influenced by the
liturgy itself rather than the oratorios. I could be wrong, its been
known to happen.

[Troels Forchhammer]

<snip>

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Öjevind Lång

Post by Larry Swain
The similarities you detect are because both Handel and Tolkien
are drawing on the same sources: Old Testament Poetry.

[...]

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Öjevind Lång
I think the parallels between Handel and the Eagle's message are
so close that it is valid to suspect that Tolkien was influenced
by Handel's "Messiah".

I don't, for 2 reasons. Number one, Handel is setting to music
Biblical passages

As I read what you say, the point is that Händel's text is so close
to the Biblical source that one cannot prove Tolkien's text to be
more closely related to one or the other?

(In general in this post, I believe that I am primarily just stating
what you have already said, but, not being myself educated in
literature, I prefer to have my reading confirmed.)

I would assume that arguments about a possible source of inspiration
would rest on two things, the closeness of the text in question to
the possible sources and the familiarity of the author with the
possible sources.

It would, of course, be preferable to demonstrate one text as the
most likely candidate source on both criteria, but when one candidate
is very nearly a copy of the other, the text in question will be
equally close to both candidates. In such a situation the argument
about which candidate is the most likely source must rely on
familiarity -- which of the sources was the author most familiar
with.

[...]

Post by Larry Swain
passages that Tolkien both as a medievalist and as an almost
life-long devout Roman Catholic would have been intimately
familiar with.

Generally Tolkien seems to me to have been intimately familiar with
the Bible all-round. He was involved in a re-translation of it, and,
as you point out, he would have heard the whole of the Bible several
times following daily mass.

<snip>

Post by Larry Swain
All in all, I'd bet my money on a heavy Roman Catholic influence
on Tolkien here rather than Handel (though admittedly we can't
make a sharp and absolute wall dividing them).

I have two questions that I'd like to have answered before even
trying to form an opinion (even if that should be to remain solidly
on the fence <G>).

I have looked in /Letters/ for any mention of Händel or his
/Messiah/, but without luck. Is there any indication elsewhere (or in
/Letters/ that I've overlooked) that Tolkien knew this work?

The Biblical passages come from various places around the Book, but
appear, as it is presented here (I don't know if the /Messiah/
passages are also taken from various places around the work), as
being conjoined in the same way both in Händel's work and in
Tolkien's. That, I think, would also constitute a strong textual
resemblance. Are the passages cited from Händel taken in sequence as
are the passages from LotR?

[Derek Broughton]

Post by Troels Forchhammer
As I read what you say, the point is that Händel's text is so close
to the Biblical source that one cannot prove Tolkien's text to be
more closely related to one or the other?

Not the _biblical text_, but the liturgical texts - in my case, the Anglican
Book of Common Prayer. Memory tells me they're similar, but not _how_
similar :-) If it was just a matter of the original sources, I think saying
Tolkien deliberately mirrored Handel would be a slam dunk, as the sources
come from all over the Bible, and both of them independently combining them
in such a similar manner would be a surprise. I guess the question is
whether Tolkien's text is more similar to the Catholic liturgy or Handel's
Messiah.

[Troels Forchhammer]

In message <news:tnduq3-***@news.pointerstop.ca>
Derek Broughton <***@pointerstop.ca> enriched us with:
<snip>

Post by Derek Broughton
Not the _biblical text_, but the liturgical texts

Right. Thank you.

[Larry Swain]

Post by Derek Broughton

Post by Troels Forchhammer
As I read what you say, the point is that Händel's text is so close
to the Biblical source that one cannot prove Tolkien's text to be
more closely related to one or the other?

Not the _biblical text_, but the liturgical texts - in my case, the Anglican
Book of Common Prayer. Memory tells me they're similar, but not _how_
similar :-)

Pretty similar. Handel's texts from the Psalms are all from the Book of
Common Prayer as he knew it in the 18th century (or the pre-1927 BCP).
The other texts were taken from the liturgical readings based on the KJV.


If it was just a matter of the original sources, I think saying

Post by Derek Broughton
Tolkien deliberately mirrored Handel would be a slam dunk, as the sources
come from all over the Bible, and both of them independently combining them
in such a similar manner would be a surprise.

Except that neither of them "combined" them: they were prepackaged if
you will in the liturgy, both simply followed that, if indeed Tolkien
was being that specific.


I guess the question is

Post by Derek Broughton
whether Tolkien's text is more similar to the Catholic liturgy or Handel's
Messiah.

As I attempted to show in my last post: the liturgy is almost the same i
both traditions. Handel is using and setting to music the same liturgy
that Tolkien is familiar with, and both would be equally at home in
English or Latin of that liturgy and liturgical texts. The English of
the English liturgy, the Douay-Rheims, as I hope you saw, is very close
to Handel's text.

[Derek Broughton]

Post by Derek Broughton
If it was just a matter of the original sources, I think saying

Post by Derek Broughton
Tolkien deliberately mirrored Handel would be a slam dunk, as the sources
come from all over the Bible, and both of them independently combining
them in such a similar manner would be a surprise.

Except that neither of them "combined" them: they were prepackaged if
you will in the liturgy, both simply followed that, if indeed Tolkien
was being that specific.

That's the point I was trying to make :-) I wasn't sure how close Handel's
version was to the liturgy - thus, whether Tolkien's could be closer to
Handel than the Catholic liturgy. You've convinced me that Tolkien
probably didn't specifically copy Handel.

[Pete Gray]

In article <1uc6r3-***@news.pointerstop.ca>, ***@pointerstop.ca
says...

Post by Derek Broughton

Post by Derek Broughton
If it was just a matter of the original sources, I think saying

Post by Derek Broughton
Tolkien deliberately mirrored Handel would be a slam dunk, as the sources
come from all over the Bible, and both of them independently combining
them in such a similar manner would be a surprise.

Except that neither of them "combined" them: they were prepackaged if
you will in the liturgy, both simply followed that, if indeed Tolkien
was being that specific.

That's the point I was trying to make :-) I wasn't sure how close Handel's
version was to the liturgy - thus, whether Tolkien's could be closer to
Handel than the Catholic liturgy. You've convinced me that Tolkien
probably didn't specifically copy Handel.

And of course the libretto was compiled by Charles Jennens - Handel set
it to music.

As Larry says, the influence is one of style and language. But not, I
think from the Catholic liturgy, as ISTR that during almost all of
Tolkien's lifetime the Catholic liturgy was conducted in Latin.

The most likely source is the King James Bible, but in any case, the
Douai-Rheims bible in use in Tolkien's day and the King James Bible are
very similar in language, and anyone of Tolkien's age, background and
academic position could hardly fail to be familiar with the Authorised
Version. Hence the influence on Tolkien here is from the KJ Bible
(itself influenced by, and in later revision, an influence on the Douai-
Rheims translation).

[pmhilton]

Pete Gray wrote:
Hence the influence on Tolkien here is from the KJ Bible

Post by Pete Gray
(itself influenced by, and in later revision, an influence on the Douai-
Rheims translation).

Recall, however there is no such thing as "THE" King James / Authorized
version; it was a "work in progress" over many decades - oddly analagous
to the growth & development of the original Hebrew, Aramaic & Greek
collections we now signify by a single label "The Bible."

One very accessible treatment is "God's Secretaries - The Making of the
King James Bible" by Adam Nicolson, Harper, ISBN 0-06-083876-6 (British
title: "Power & Glory")

Pete H

[Larry Swain]

Post by Pete Gray
says...

Post by Derek Broughton

Post by Derek Broughton
If it was just a matter of the original sources, I think saying

Post by Derek Broughton
Tolkien deliberately mirrored Handel would be a slam dunk, as the sources
come from all over the Bible, and both of them independently combining
them in such a similar manner would be a surprise.

Except that neither of them "combined" them: they were prepackaged if
you will in the liturgy, both simply followed that, if indeed Tolkien
was being that specific.

That's the point I was trying to make :-) I wasn't sure how close Handel's
version was to the liturgy - thus, whether Tolkien's could be closer to
Handel than the Catholic liturgy. You've convinced me that Tolkien
probably didn't specifically copy Handel.

And of course the libretto was compiled by Charles Jennens - Handel set
it to music.
As Larry says, the influence is one of style and language. But not, I
think from the Catholic liturgy, as ISTR that during almost all of
Tolkien's lifetime the Catholic liturgy was conducted in Latin.

But not the readings of the lectionary and sermons which were done in
English, from the Douai-Rheims. The liturgy itself, particularly the
mass was in Latin, but even as a school boy learning Latin, he like
millions of other school boys translated in his head so he could figure
out what was going on. Even my dear ol' dad knows that much Latin.

Post by Pete Gray
The most likely source is the King James Bible, but in any case, the
Douai-Rheims bible in use in Tolkien's day and the King James Bible are
very similar in language, and anyone of Tolkien's age, background and
academic position could hardly fail to be familiar with the Authorised
Version.

Maybe. I'm not sure what his background would have to do with it: they
learned Latin and Greek at St. Edward's. Was it a Prot school? I can't
recall, but I do recall that the Tolkien boys went to daily mass. His
academic posiition likewise focused on literature written long before
the KJV came into existence, so I'm not sure how or why that would be a
reason for him to be as familiar if not more familiar with the KJV than
the Douay-Rheims. They are similar enough in langage in most passages
as to not make a difference though. NOr am I certain what his age has
to do with it either.

[Pete Gray]

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Pete Gray
As Larry says, the influence is one of style and language. But not, I
think from the Catholic liturgy, as ISTR that during almost all of
Tolkien's lifetime the Catholic liturgy was conducted in Latin.

But not the readings of the lectionary and sermons which were done in
English, from the Douai-Rheims. The liturgy itself, particularly the
mass was in Latin, but even as a school boy learning Latin, he like
millions of other school boys translated in his head so he could figure
out what was going on. Even my dear ol' dad knows that much Latin.

Fair enough, but you don't (or at least I never did) tend to translate
it into the language of the KJV. But how hard is that to do when the
pronunciation in church is ecclesiatical style and you've been taught
the new pronunciation? I'm not sure which Tolkien would have learned at
school, but it was probably the latter.

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Pete Gray
The most likely source is the King James Bible, but in any case, the
Douai-Rheims bible in use in Tolkien's day and the King James Bible are
very similar in language, and anyone of Tolkien's age, background and
academic position could hardly fail to be familiar with the Authorised
Version.

Maybe. I'm not sure what his background would have to do with it: they

I meant his educational background.

Post by Larry Swain
learned Latin and Greek at St. Edward's. Was it a Prot school? I can't

King Edward's. Yes, it has a CofE chaplain even today.

Post by Larry Swain
recall, but I do recall that the Tolkien boys went to daily mass. His
academic posiition likewise focused on literature written long before
the KJV came into existence, so I'm not sure how or why that would be a
reason for him to be as familiar if not more familiar with the KJV than
the Douay-Rheims. They are similar enough in langage in most passages

Yes, I'm in a sense conflating the two because of the strong influence
of KJV on the revised version of Douai-Rheims. As you say the influence
on Tolkien is not so much specific quotes (all the offered examples have
hardly more than a word or at most two in common) but rather the
language and style.

Post by Larry Swain
as to not make a difference though. NOr am I certain what his age has
to do with it either.

Sloppy expression on my part - I was thinking of his age at the time of
the composition of that part of LotR and therefore the era in which he
grew up.

[Larry Swain]

Post by Pete Gray

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Pete Gray
As Larry says, the influence is one of style and language. But not, I
think from the Catholic liturgy, as ISTR that during almost all of
Tolkien's lifetime the Catholic liturgy was conducted in Latin.

But not the readings of the lectionary and sermons which were done in
English, from the Douai-Rheims. The liturgy itself, particularly the
mass was in Latin, but even as a school boy learning Latin, he like
millions of other school boys translated in his head so he could figure
out what was going on. Even my dear ol' dad knows that much Latin.

Fair enough, but you don't (or at least I never did) tend to translate
it into the language of the KJV. But how hard is that to do when the
pronunciation in church is ecclesiatical style and you've been taught
the new pronunciation? I'm not sure which Tolkien would have learned at
school, but it was probably the latter.

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Pete Gray
The most likely source is the King James Bible, but in any case, the
Douai-Rheims bible in use in Tolkien's day and the King James Bible are
very similar in language, and anyone of Tolkien's age, background and
academic position could hardly fail to be familiar with the Authorised
Version.

Maybe. I'm not sure what his background would have to do with it: they

I meant his educational background.

Post by Larry Swain
learned Latin and Greek at St. Edward's. Was it a Prot school? I can't

King Edward's. Yes, it has a CofE chaplain even today.

Post by Larry Swain
recall, but I do recall that the Tolkien boys went to daily mass. His
academic posiition likewise focused on literature written long before
the KJV came into existence, so I'm not sure how or why that would be a
reason for him to be as familiar if not more familiar with the KJV than
the Douay-Rheims. They are similar enough in langage in most passages

Yes, I'm in a sense conflating the two because of the strong influence
of KJV on the revised version of Douai-Rheims. As you say the influence
on Tolkien is not so much specific quotes (all the offered examples have
hardly more than a word or at most two in common) but rather the
language and style.

Post by Larry Swain
as to not make a difference though. NOr am I certain what his age has
to do with it either.

Sloppy expression on my part - I was thinking of his age at the time of
the composition of that part of LotR and therefore the era in which he
grew up.

Ok, Thanks for explaining, I don't think we have anything to disagree about.

[Larry Swain]

Post by Troels Forchhammer
<snip>

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Öjevind Lång

Post by Larry Swain
The similarities you detect are because both Handel and Tolkien
are drawing on the same sources: Old Testament Poetry.

[...]

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Öjevind Lång
I think the parallels between Handel and the Eagle's message are
so close that it is valid to suspect that Tolkien was influenced
by Handel's "Messiah".

I don't, for 2 reasons. Number one, Handel is setting to music
Biblical passages

As I read what you say, the point is that Händel's text is so close
to the Biblical source that one cannot prove Tolkien's text to be
more closely related to one or the other?

To the liturgical source....but yes, that's a major part of the argument.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
(In general in this post, I believe that I am primarily just stating
what you have already said, but, not being myself educated in
literature, I prefer to have my reading confirmed.)
I would assume that arguments about a possible source of inspiration
would rest on two things, the closeness of the text in question to
the possible sources and the familiarity of the author with the
possible sources.

Yes. So part A is: the texts are very close and virtually
indistinguishable Part B is: We know Tolkien knew the liturgy and the
liturgical texts both personally and professionally and did so nearly
his entire life long. Do we know that he was as familiar with Handel's
Messiah? Showing that he knew it is insufficient in this case, he needs
to know it as well as he does the liturgical texts.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
It would, of course, be preferable to demonstrate one text as the
most likely candidate source on both criteria, but when one candidate
is very nearly a copy of the other, the text in question will be
equally close to both candidates. In such a situation the argument
about which candidate is the most likely source must rely on
familiarity -- which of the sources was the author most familiar
with.
[...]

Post by Larry Swain
passages that Tolkien both as a medievalist and as an almost
life-long devout Roman Catholic would have been intimately
familiar with.

Generally Tolkien seems to me to have been intimately familiar with
the Bible all-round. He was involved in a re-translation of it, and,
as you point out, he would have heard the whole of the Bible several
times following daily mass.
<snip>

Post by Larry Swain
All in all, I'd bet my money on a heavy Roman Catholic influence
on Tolkien here rather than Handel (though admittedly we can't
make a sharp and absolute wall dividing them).

I have two questions that I'd like to have answered before even
trying to form an opinion (even if that should be to remain solidly
on the fence <G>).
I have looked in /Letters/ for any mention of Händel or his
/Messiah/, but without luck. Is there any indication elsewhere (or in
/Letters/ that I've overlooked) that Tolkien knew this work?

None that I know of. I think we can say in general terms "of course",
Handel is well known and a frequently played work, particularly amongst
Protestant Christians. I have no problem believing that Tolkien had
heard the Messiah at some point, but familiar wnough with it that it
influenced his Eagle song in LoTR in contrast to the liturgy with which
we know he was so familiar.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
The Biblical passages come from various places around the Book, but
appear, as it is presented here (I don't know if the /Messiah/
passages are also taken from various places around the work)

Yes. Sometimes even with an air or recititive different Biblical
passages will appear.

as

Post by Troels Forchhammer
being conjoined in the same way both in Händel's work and in
Tolkien's. That, I think, would also constitute a strong textual
resemblance. Are the passages cited from Händel taken in sequence as
are the passages from LotR?

I want to introduce a third argument too...that is that Tolkien's
"psalm" is Biblical inspired, but parallels may be found to many
Biblical passages, not just to those found in the Messiah. But that
will take a while to put together.

[T.M. Sommers]

Post by Sean
Listening to a recording of Tolkien himself reciting the eagle's
message to the people of Minas Tirith announcing the fall of Sauron,
it reminded me of Handel's Messiah.
Here is Tolkien's text interleaved with lines from the Messiah;
...
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you all the days of your life.

The last line of this bit reminds me of the 23d Psalm: "Surely
goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life, and I
will dwell in the house of the Lord forever." Not exactly
parallel, but the juxtaposition of "{will|shall} dwell" and "all
the days of {your|my} life" is striking.

[Phlip]

The last line of this bit reminds me of the 23d Psalm: "Surely goodness
and mercy will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the
house of the Lord forever." Not exactly parallel, but the juxtaposition
of "{will|shall} dwell" and "all the days of {your|my} life" is striking.

Next, Psalm 23 is among the Psalms borrowed from Egyptian praisology:

"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear
no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."

The "valley of ... death" is of course a symbol of any high-risk situation,
but it also reflects the actual necropolis at Thebes. The "rod and ...
staff" represent the pharonic attributes of a threshing rod and shepherd's
staff.

So while Tolkien's primary allusion is Handel's Messiah, both their
inspirations are simply humanity's common and archetypical songs of joy and
deliverance.

[unknown]

Post by Phlip

The last line of this bit reminds me of the 23d Psalm: "Surely goodness
and mercy will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the
house of the Lord forever." Not exactly parallel, but the juxtaposition
of "{will|shall} dwell" and "all the days of {your|my} life" is striking.

"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear
no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."
The "valley of ... death" is of course a symbol of any high-risk situation,
but it also reflects the actual necropolis at Thebes. The "rod and ...
staff" represent the pharonic attributes of a threshing rod and shepherd's
staff.
So while Tolkien's primary allusion is Handel's Messiah, both their
inspirations are simply humanity's common and archetypical songs of joy and
deliverance.

Psalm 23 uses Egyptian symbols, but it doesn't follow that the concept
being expressed had applicability to the wider Egyptian culture which
created the symbols, and certainly doesn't make them common to all of
humanity.

To convicingly state their universality (rather than their being
peculiar to either Tolkien, Handel or Christians) I think some evidence
of them would need to be identified within all world cultures, not just
a couple from the east end of the Mediterranean.