How hidden is Rivendell?

[Steuard Jensen]

Rivendell is, by all accounts, hard to find. Boromir commented that
he had wandered long "by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond,
of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay". In /The Hobbit/,
the characters have a hard time getting there despite being led by
Gandalf (who knew it well!), and even he ended up entering the valley
at the wrong place.

On the other hand, we know that the Dunedain kept in close contact
with Rivendell and went there fairly often. Elves came and went
through Eriador, and presumably they usually passed through Rivendell
along the way. Moreover, when I look at the map it looks for all the
world like the Great East Road practically dead-ends at Rivendell. We
know that Dwarves took that road regularly between the Blue Mountains
and their other habitations in the distant east. So just where did
the Road go? Did the Elves deliberately arrange for the Road to
bypass their home? The war on Eregion was long over; why was such
secrecy deemed necessary? (Or when did it begin?) How secret was it
really?

Maybe they just didn't want to deal with all those Dwarves. :)

Steuard Jensen

[Phlip]

Post by Steuard Jensen
Did the Elves deliberately arrange for the Road to
bypass their home? The war on Eregion was long over; why was such
secrecy deemed necessary? (Or when did it begin?) How secret was it
really?

All elven realms are cryptic. Doriath has a Girdle of Melian; Lothlorien is
a "hidden realm"; Gondolin was obviously completely hidden; Nargothrond was
hard to find, etc.

[Steuard Jensen]

Post by Phlip

Did the Elves deliberately arrange for the Road to bypass their
home? The war on Eregion was long over; why was such secrecy
deemed necessary? (Or when did it begin?) How secret was it
really?

All elven realms are cryptic. Doriath has a Girdle of Melian;
Lothlorien is a "hidden realm"; Gondolin was obviously completely
hidden; Nargothrond was hard to find, etc.

Doriath, Gondolin, and Nargothrond were in fact hidden, as you say.
But they were notable mainly because their hidden status allowed them
to survive longer than the many non-hidden Elven realms of Beleriand:
the hidden realms were very much in the minority, as far as I could
tell.

I've seen no indication that Lindon and the Havens were particularly
"hidden", either under Gil-galad in the Second Age or under(?) Cirdan
in the Third. Eregion certainly wasn't "hidden". Lothlorien was
"hidden", but more in the sense of "hard to get into" than "hard to
find": everyone knew where the forest was and that Galadriel was
there. It's not clear to me that Thranduil's realm in Mirkwood was
"hidden": they had ongoing commerce with the Men of Esgaroth and
others. The old Elvish haven near Dol Amroth was pretty well-known; I
don't see any reason to think that it counted as "hidden".

So all in all I guess I'd say that "some" Elven realms are cryptic and
hidden, and some are not. I strongly disagree with your "all". And
thus I claim that my original question remains open: why was Rivendell
maintained as a "hidden" refuge, even during eras where no particular
threat was nearby?

Steuard Jensen

[Phlip]

Post by Steuard Jensen
So all in all I guess I'd say that "some" Elven realms are cryptic and
hidden, and some are not. I strongly disagree with your "all". And
thus I claim that my original question remains open: why was Rivendell
maintained as a "hidden" refuge, even during eras where no particular
threat was nearby?

Easy. Elrond walked along the slopes of the Misty Mountains until he found
the vale least likely to be stumbled upon. The roads generally went
elsewhere.

So R. remained relatively hidden, regardless of Elrond's power to enchant
the forests around it, and regardless of his household's skill at tracking
and misleading encroachers.

[Steuard Jensen]

Post by Phlip

...why was Rivendell maintained as a "hidden" refuge, even during
eras where no particular threat was nearby?

Easy. Elrond walked along the slopes of the Misty Mountains until he
found the vale least likely to be stumbled upon. The roads generally
went elsewhere.
So R. remained relatively hidden, regardless of Elrond's power to
enchant the forests around it, and regardless of his household's
skill at tracking and misleading encroachers.

That's a fine story to explain how the location of Rivendell was
chosen in the first place (when it was certainly meant to be hidden),
but my question was really why (and to some extent how) it /stayed/
hidden after the defeat of Sauron. A fair number of people knew where
it was and went there at least somewhat regularly, it was very close
to a reasonably major road (and the last place to reprovision before
crossing the mountains), and for at least a few centuries it wasn't
particularly threatened by the Enemy. Why did nobody ever build a
clearer road there?

Steuard Jensen

[William Hull]

Post by Steuard Jensen
That's a fine story to explain how the location of Rivendell was
chosen in the first place (when it was certainly meant to be hidden),
but my question was really why (and to some extent how) it /stayed/
hidden after the defeat of Sauron. A fair number of people knew where
it was and went there at least somewhat regularly, it was very close
to a reasonably major road (and the last place to reprovision before
crossing the mountains), and for at least a few centuries it wasn't
particularly threatened by the Enemy. Why did nobody ever build a
clearer road there?

The elves with is to preserve the Elder days, or at least an echo of
them in the small realms they still maintain, against the modern world.
Even friendly connections with the new world of man would undermine
that. Interactions with other peoples bring change, and the Eldar no
longer wished that.

Also, I don't think it's surprising that the inhabitants of Rivendell
would be a bit paranoid. It was founded as a refuge after the fall of
Eregion, and some may even have seen the fall of the elven realms of
Beleriand. It was building a "clearer road" which doomed Nargothrond,
after all.

Also, echoing Gondolin would be no bad thing to the elves, I would guess

[grimgard]

Post by Steuard Jensen

Post by Phlip

...why was Rivendell maintained as a "hidden" refuge, even during
eras where no particular threat was nearby?

Easy. Elrond walked along the slopes of the Misty Mountains until he
found the vale least likely to be stumbled upon. The roads generally
went elsewhere.
So R. remained relatively hidden, regardless of Elrond's power to
enchant the forests around it, and regardless of his household's
skill at tracking and misleading encroachers.

That's a fine story to explain how the location of Rivendell was
chosen in the first place (when it was certainly meant to be hidden),
but my question was really why (and to some extent how) it /stayed/
hidden after the defeat of Sauron. A fair number of people knew where
it was and went there at least somewhat regularly, it was very close
to a reasonably major road (and the last place to reprovision before
crossing the mountains), and for at least a few centuries it wasn't
particularly threatened by the Enemy. Why did nobody ever build a
clearer road there?
Steuard Jensen

Well, maybe because most of the road building was done by Dwarves and myabe
because the Dwarves disliked being teased by the merry little elves.
Notwithstanding the amusing notion that Elves and Dwarves were fast friends,
they both seemed happier without each other's company. Of course, maybe if
the Elves has been a little more enterprising and opened a casino, things
would have been different. Anyway, I doubt that Elrond would have
appreciated having every traveller on their way to or from the Mountains
stopping by to ask for provisions. Probably, the philosophy was that, if
you didn't know how to get there, you had no business going there. And, in
those rare exceptions, if you couldn't find it, then you weren't *meant* to
find it.

[Count Menelvagor]

Post by grimgard
they both seemed happier without each other's company. Of course, maybe if
the Elves has been a little more enterprising and opened a casino, things
would have been different. Anyway, I doubt that Elrond would have

especially if it had an annex called Arwen's Little House of Pleasure.
but elrond was too prudish. it took shelob to come up with any decent,
or indecent fun in middle-earth.

middle-earth wasn't medieval after all; it was victorian.

[elendur]

<<why was Rivendell maintained as a "hidden" refuge, even during eras
where no particular
threat was nearby?>>

Does HoME say anything about the fact that Rivendell as Last Homely
House is in The Hobbit already? and thus has to be transferred into
LoTR? Is there a list of which aspects of Middle Earth were pre-empted
by The Hobbit as published, before LoTR was written?

[Steuard Jensen]

Post by elendur
<<why was Rivendell maintained as a "hidden" refuge, even during
eras where no particular threat was nearby?>>
Does HoME say anything about the fact that Rivendell as Last Homely
House is in The Hobbit already? and thus has to be transferred into
LoTR? Is there a list of which aspects of Middle Earth were
pre-empted by The Hobbit as published, before LoTR was written?

(My apologies if I've misunderstood your question.) As far as I know,
Rivendell was first invented in /The Hobbit/ and not before. So while
it did then get inherited in LotR, the statements in /The Hobbit/
didn't do anything to "mess up" any previously existing stories about
it. (As for a general list, I'm not aware of such a thing, but I
agree that it would be interesting!)

Steuard Jensen

[elendur]

<<the statements in /The Hobbit/
didn't do anything to "mess up" any previously existing stories about
it. >>

Well to my knowledge, a "mess up" could only have happened if JRRT had
published any of Silmarillion or related material before he published
The Hobbit. AFAIK this was not so. That is "mess up" has to be defined
as "in contradiction to previously published material". Or were you
thinking of "mess up" to mean JRRT´s private thoughts?

What bothers me is that Rivendell has undergone at least one siege in
its history, but there is no mention of any fortification at the valley
lip any more in LOTR. I suppose Elrond has powers, cf. making creeks
rise, which let him waive normal military defence considerations.....

[Steuard Jensen]

<<the statements in /The Hobbit/ didn't do anything to "mess up" any
previously existing stories about it. >>

[snip]

That is "mess up" has to be defined as "in contradiction to
previously published material". Or were you thinking of "mess up" to
mean JRRT´s private thoughts?

Precisely: I meant "mess up" as in "Give Tolkien a headache as he
tried to reconcile the published /Hobbit/ with the Silmarillion
material that he hoped to publish in the future or to incorporate into
LotR". :) As you've noted, none of the Silmarillion stories were
published before /The Hobbit/ at all; moreover, to a substantial
extent /The Hobbit/ as published wasn't really even meant to be part
of the Silmarillion world. (But now I wonder if I correctly
understood the question that I was trying to answer...)

Steuard Jensen

[Derek Broughton]

Post by Steuard Jensen

Post by Phlip
All elven realms are cryptic. Doriath has a Girdle of Melian;
Lothlorien is a "hidden realm"; Gondolin was obviously completely
hidden; Nargothrond was hard to find, etc.

I've seen no indication that Lindon and the Havens were particularly
"hidden", either under Gil-galad in the Second Age or under(?) Cirdan
in the Third. Eregion certainly wasn't "hidden". Lothlorien was
"hidden", but more in the sense of "hard to get into" than "hard to
find": everyone knew where the forest was and that Galadriel was
there.

They could probably find it on a map - as they could Rivendell - but I'm not
convinced that just anybody could actually walk into it, even if the Elves
let them.

Post by Steuard Jensen
It's not clear to me that Thranduil's realm in Mirkwood was
"hidden": they had ongoing commerce with the Men of Esgaroth and
others.

They had commerce, but I rather doubt a suspicious old geezer like Thranduil
invited Men to do their commerce in his Hall - I think he sends his people
to them. Again, I rather think that someone actively seeking Thranduil's
hall would get lost. I expect it ties in with your speculations about the
Old Forest - the paths really _do_ change, and when you start out East, you
end up walking straight into the setting sun.

Post by Steuard Jensen
So all in all I guess I'd say that "some" Elven realms are cryptic and
hidden, and some are not. I strongly disagree with your "all".

I think I have to "mildly" disagree with "all" :-)

Post by Steuard Jensen
And
thus I claim that my original question remains open: why was Rivendell
maintained as a "hidden" refuge, even during eras where no particular
threat was nearby?

My speculation - and it's completely idle - would be that it is exactly
because Elrond is one of the few who doesn't believe there is no threat.
When Isildur refused to destroy the Ring, Elrond knew that Sauron would
return - and knew equally that the Three needed to be hidden. So he and
Galadriel hid their lands. Perhaps Cirdan did, perhaps not - while there's
no clear sign he did, there's also no indication that I know of that
mortals had ever been to the Havens before Frodo, Bilbo and the rest of the
hobbits. In any case, he had given his ring to Gandalf long before we know
anything of the Havens - perhaps he had no need of concealment after that.

[Stan Brown]

Tue, 25 Jul 2006 09:54:58 -0300 from Derek Broughton
<***@pointerstop.ca>:
[about why Rivendell was a "hidden refuge" even in the early years of
the Third Age, after the first defeat of Sauron, leading to
speculation about Cirdan's Havens]

Post by Derek Broughton
Elrond knew that Sauron would
return - and knew equally that the Three needed to be hidden. So he and
Galadriel hid their lands. Perhaps Cirdan did, perhaps not - while there's
no clear sign he did, there's also no indication that I know of that
mortals had ever been to the Havens before Frodo, Bilbo and the rest of the
hobbits. In any case, he had given his ring to Gandalf long before we know
anything of the Havens - perhaps he had no need of concealment after that.

I think the Havens were different in three ways from Lorien and
Rivendell:

(1) They were remote

(2) They had a ready escape route via the Sea

(3) They were ruled by Cirdan

Cirdan seems to think of himself as a spectator of Middle-earth, not
a participant. As far as we know, he never used his Ring before he
gave it to Gandalf.

He was of course much older than Elrond, maybe even older than
Galadriel. If he felt that Sauron was no threat to him, after having
been one of the leaders in the first defeat, he probably knew what he
was talking about. There's no record of Sauron ever developing a
navy, and presumably Cirdan felt that if the Haradrim started ranging
too far north he'd have enough time to get away, or enough power to
repel them.

[Phlip]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Derek Broughton
Perhaps Cirdan did, perhaps not - while there's
no clear sign he did, there's also no indication that I know of that
mortals had ever been to the Havens before Frodo, Bilbo and the rest of the
hobbits.

Plenty of mortals used those havens, most notably the troops Gondor sent to
Arnor, hoping to end their war with Angmar.

Post by Stan Brown
Cirdan seems to think of himself as a spectator of Middle-earth, not
a participant. As far as we know, he never used his Ring before he
gave it to Gandalf.

Cirdan seems to prefer Water. Giving up his Ring of Fire would have been a
no-brainer.

[Derek Broughton]

Post by Phlip

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Derek Broughton
Perhaps Cirdan did, perhaps not - while there's
no clear sign he did, there's also no indication that I know of that
mortals had ever been to the Havens before Frodo, Bilbo and the rest of
the hobbits.

Plenty of mortals used those havens, most notably the troops Gondor sent
to Arnor, hoping to end their war with Angmar.

That begins to ring a tiny little bell. Thanks.

Post by Phlip

Post by Stan Brown
Cirdan seems to think of himself as a spectator of Middle-earth, not
a participant. As far as we know, he never used his Ring before he
gave it to Gandalf.

Cirdan seems to prefer Water. Giving up his Ring of Fire would have been a
no-brainer.

Which brings me to another thought. Why on MiddleEarth did Cirdan even have
a Ring? Was it simply that he was, at the time, one of the three most
powerful elves?

[j***@smartdm.ca]

Post by Derek Broughton
Which brings me to another thought. Why on MiddleEarth did Cirdan even have
a Ring? Was it simply that he was, at the time, one of the three most
powerful elves?

Probably. Since the Rings increase the power of the wearer, giving them
to the three most powerful Elves would be one reasonable thing to do.

And since many Elves in the West of Middle-earth, most specifically the
exiled Noldor, saw their stay in Middle-earth as a relatively short
period of time in their lives, they would especially want to ensure
that the Havens were protected as well as might be.

To be sure, the Elven rings were not particularly powerful as weapons,
we are told. But indirectly they might well enable increased protection
of the land under the rule of their bearer. It is hinted that Galadriel
relies in part on the power of the Ring to preserve Lothlórien and it
is reasonable that Círdan would do the same for the preservation of
the Havens, until the coming of Gandalf, whom Círdan felt would have
more need of the Ring's power.

Jallan

[Stan Brown]

Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:18:40 -0300 from Derek Broughton

Post by Derek Broughton
Which brings me to another thought. Why on MiddleEarth did Cirdan even have
a Ring? Was it simply that he was, at the time, one of the three most
powerful elves?

Could we set aside "most powerful"? He was one of the three of
highest lineage; I think both Elves and Dwarves think in those terms.

[Derek Broughton]

Post by Stan Brown
Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:18:40 -0300 from Derek Broughton

Post by Derek Broughton
Which brings me to another thought. Why on MiddleEarth did Cirdan even have
a Ring? Was it simply that he was, at the time, one of the three most
powerful elves?

Could we set aside "most powerful"?

Oops! I've followed the various threads comparing "powers" in the past year
but not participated in them specifically because I fully agree with you
that that's not a very important, or even possible, measure. And then I
fall into the same error.

Post by Stan Brown
He was one of the three of
highest lineage; I think both Elves and Dwarves think in those terms.

That sounds perfectly good to me.

[Dirk Thierbach]

And thus I claim that my original question remains open: why was
Rivendell maintained as a "hidden" refuge, even during eras where no
particular threat was nearby?

It's not so "hidden" after all: Boromir is able to find it without help,
for example.

And, if one assumes that the fact that Rivendell is hard to find is
somehow connected with magic, and we don't know a lot about magic,
one can make up any number of story-internal explanations. It could
be a side-effect of Elrond using his Ring to preserve Rivendell. It
could be a "resident" magic effect from the time magic was used to
keep Rivendell hidden. And so on.

Story-externally, I think it's just one attribute that Tolkien felt
should belong to Rivendell: In a fairy tale, such a refugium is *always*
hidden in some way.

- Dirk

[j***@smartdm.ca]

Post by Dirk Thierbach

And thus I claim that my original question remains open: why was
Rivendell maintained as a "hidden" refuge, even during eras where no
particular threat was nearby?

It's not so "hidden" after all: Boromir is able to find it without help,
for example.

We aren't given details as to how Boromir found it. That he found it
"without help" is not stated anywhere. (One might imagine that
Rivendell Elves did patrol the surrounding territory, acosted Boromir,
and learning of his purpose, then brought him openly into Rivendell.)

Post by Dirk Thierbach
Story-externally, I think it's just one attribute that Tolkien felt
should belong to Rivendell: In a fairy tale, such a refugium is *always*
hidden in some way.

I don't understand this. In any kind of story, fairy tale or not, of
course a "hidden" refugium is always hidden ... by definition. That
doesn't say much.

But I can't think of any traditional fairy tales that have refugium's
of this kind, other than tales in which a traveller is given
hospitality and then wakes out in the wild the following day, or
something similar, such as being invited into a sidh in Irish
traditional tales.

This may be the kind of thing you mean. Elvish settlements, in a world
increasingly dominated by men, will be seen as being somewhat hidden,
somewhat beyond the fields Men normally know, just as dwellings of
Elivsh folk in medieval tales must, if they exist, be either disguised
and hidden by magic, or be far from mortal dwellings in the depths of
the forest or wilderness or beneath the earth.

Jallan

[Phlip]

Post by j***@smartdm.ca
We aren't given details as to how Boromir found it. That he found it
"without help" is not stated anywhere. (One might imagine that
Rivendell Elves did patrol the surrounding territory, acosted Boromir,
and learning of his purpose, then brought him openly into Rivendell.)

Boromir entered a region seething with elf scouts, looking for evidence of
the Ringwraiths. They would have detected and tracked Boromir long before he
required intervention. They might even have sent word to Elrond that a man
from the South, unhorsed but with subtle hints of nobility, was obviously
and clumsily seeking Rivendell.

Post by j***@smartdm.ca
But I can't think of any traditional fairy tales that have refugium's
of this kind

Besides the Shire's own Woody End?

Post by j***@smartdm.ca
This may be the kind of thing you mean. Elvish settlements, in a world
increasingly dominated by men, will be seen as being somewhat hidden

If it hides in plain sight, such as a fair spot in a forest, then it
approaches the Celtic ideal of blessed trees and rocks, attended by immortal
nature-spirits.

It's hiding the big, developed realms that gets tricky.

[Stan Brown]

Wed, 26 Jul 2006 08:55:30 +0200 from Dirk Thierbach

Post by Dirk Thierbach

And thus I claim that my original question remains open: why was
Rivendell maintained as a "hidden" refuge, even during eras where no
particular threat was nearby?

It's not so "hidden" after all: Boromir is able to find it without help,
for example.

That would be consistent with my hypothesis: that Rivendell is hidden
from those who are not invited or expected. Remember after all that
Elrond was ((counts on fingers)) Melian's great-great-grandson.
Perhaps Rivendell was protected by a junior version of the Girdle.
But just as great fate lets Beren through the Girdle, it lets Boromir
through it.

But against all this lies the fact that the Dwarves cross the Misty
Mountains by the High Pass fairly often, according to Gloin; and it's
hard to belive they wouldn't go through Rivendell to break their
journey.

[Phlip]

Post by Stan Brown
But just as great fate lets Beren through the Girdle, it lets Boromir
through it.

Dang. I love it when Tolkien doesn't even realize he's permitting
'alliterative verse'. (Read Battle of the Pelennor Fields, for lines like
"folding its fingered webs", to see what I mean...)

[Larry Swain]

Post by Phlip

Post by Stan Brown
But just as great fate lets Beren through the Girdle, it lets Boromir
through it.

Dang. I love it when Tolkien doesn't even realize he's permitting
'alliterative verse'. (Read Battle of the Pelennor Fields, for lines like
"folding its fingered webs", to see what I mean...)

I think Tolkien was very aware of it......

[Derek Broughton]

Post by Stan Brown
Wed, 26 Jul 2006 08:55:30 +0200 from Dirk Thierbach

Post by Dirk Thierbach
It's not so "hidden" after all: Boromir is able to find it without help,
for example.

That would be consistent with my hypothesis: that Rivendell is hidden
from those who are not invited or expected.

I feel the same. Given that the embassies from the Dwarves & Gondor arrived
at about the same time as Gandalf and the Hobbits with Aragorn, it seems
reasonable to me that Elrond had, at least in part, summoned those with an
interest to Rivendell - and that Boromir didn't find his way in until that
time.

Post by Stan Brown
But against all this lies the fact that the Dwarves cross the Misty
Mountains by the High Pass fairly often, according to Gloin; and it's
hard to belive they wouldn't go through Rivendell to break their
journey.

Why? I find it hard to imagine they would stop in Rivendell even if they
knew _exactly_ how to find it. These are a people who felt betrayed by
Bilbo when he offered his fair share of Smaug's treasure to the Elf king to
stop a war between Elves & Dwarves - and the elves had no more love of
them.

[Stan Brown]

Sat, 29 Jul 2006 18:33:25 -0300 from Derek Broughton

I find it hard to imagine [the Dwarves] would stop in Rivendell
even if they knew _exactly_ how to find it. These are a people who
felt betrayed by Bilbo when he offered his fair share of Smaug's
treasure to the Elf king to stop a war between Elves & Dwarves -
and the elves had no more love of them.

The Dwarves didn't get along with Thranduil's people, but those same
Dwarves were on good terms with Elrond's people. Maybe it's that
Rivendell was a Noldorin realm, and the Wood-Elves were ruled by
Sindar -- the Dwarves always had an affinity for the Noldor.

Look at Gloin's bearing toward Legolas in the Council of Elrond --
Gloin was quick to take offense even when none was intended, but he
didn't show any of that attitude toward Elrond.

[JimboCat]

Post by Stan Brown
the Dwarves always had an affinity for the Noldor.
Look at Gloin's bearing toward Legolas in the Council of Elrond --
Gloin was quick to take offense even when none was intended, but he
didn't show any of that attitude toward Elrond.

Oh, but there's a perfectly immediate and personal explanation for
Gloin's reaction to Legolas: the time Gloin spent in his father
Thranduil's prison! That would tend to color his attitude a bit, don't
you think? Elrond and his kin had never mistreated Gloin or any of his
kin, as far as I know, so there wasn't any personal animosity there.

Rather than an affinity, I think it would be more circumspect to say
that the Dwarves had less of an enmity to the Noldor...the partnership
between Kazad-Dum and Eregion is the only such example we know of, and
it did not outlast the hardships of the War of the Last Alliance.

Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
The errors hardest
to condone
in other people
are one's own.
- Piet Hein, /Our Own Motes/

[Derek Broughton]

Post by JimboCat

Post by Stan Brown
the Dwarves always had an affinity for the Noldor.
Look at Gloin's bearing toward Legolas in the Council of Elrond --
Gloin was quick to take offense even when none was intended, but he
didn't show any of that attitude toward Elrond.

I always took that as a bully's attitude - that he could try to
cause "young" Legolas grief, but he didn't dare take that attitude to
Elrond. I never sensed any friendship, or even respect, for Elrond.

Post by JimboCat
Rather than an affinity, I think it would be more circumspect to say
that the Dwarves had less of an enmity to the Noldor...the partnership
between Kazad-Dum and Eregion is the only such example we know of, and
it did not outlast the hardships of the War of the Last Alliance.

Wasn't there an alliance back in the days of Beleriand? Even so, such
entente was rare, and it still seems unlikely to me that dwarves typically
visited Rivendell while passing by.

[Öjevind Lång]

Post by Derek Broughton

Post by Stan Brown
the Dwarves always had an affinity for the Noldor.
Look at Gloin's bearing toward Legolas in the Council of Elrond --
Gloin was quick to take offense even when none was intended, but he
didn't show any of that attitude toward Elrond.

I always took that as a bully's attitude - that he could try to
cause "young" Legolas grief, but he didn't dare take that attitude to
Elrond. I never sensed any friendship, or even respect, for Elrond.

I think "bully" is much too strong an expresion. When Gandalf tells Glóin
that they must all work togetherin the face of common peril and can't go
through every grievance between Elves and Dwarves, Glóin gets up and bows. I
take that as an apology to everybody present.

Öjevind

[Stan Brown]

Wed, 2 Aug 2006 04:01:37 +0200 from Öjevind Lång

Post by Öjevind Lång
I think "bully" is much too strong an expresion.

Me too. A bully picks fights on someone weaker. Gloin did, after all,
have a memory of being unjustly imprisoned by Legolas' father.
Granted, from Thranduil's viewpoint Thorin & Co. were trespassers.
But they hadn't actually done any damage, and it should have been
clear from questioning them that they were up to nothing in
Thranduil's wood. It was really not his business what travelers
through his wood might do once they reached the other side.

Post by Öjevind Lång
When Gandalf tells Glóin
that they must all work togetherin the face of common peril and can't go
through every grievance between Elves and Dwarves, Glóin gets up and bows. I
take that as an apology to everybody present.

I took it that way too -- a proud Man would behave so, bowing a
little stiffly but sincerely willing to put aside his justified
grievance (justified by his own lights, anyway) to work for the
common good. I could picture Boromir behaving in just such a way.

[Derek Broughton]

Post by Öjevind Lång

Post by Derek Broughton
I always took that as a bully's attitude - that he could try to
cause "young" Legolas grief, but he didn't dare take that attitude to
Elrond. I never sensed any friendship, or even respect, for Elrond.

I think "bully" is much too strong an expresion.

Probably :-) I _did_ agonize over the use of the word - I just couldn't
think of a better way to put it.

[Stan Brown]

Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:18:23 GMT from Steuard Jensen
<***@midway.uchicago.edu>:
[Rivendell is hard to find but the Road dead-ends there]

I wonder if there are enchantments, a lesser version of the shadowy
Isles that hide Valinor, such that people find it hard to find
Rivendell unless they are in some sense invited or expected. This
could be part of Rivendell's preservation by means of Elrond's Ring,
but I can think of another possibility too.

I've always been enchanted(*) by what the leader of the Elves said
when Pippin asked if they were being given magic cloaks: "you will
find them a great aid in keeping out of the sight of unfriendly
eyes". Perhaps Rivendell was protected by something similar, but on a
larger scale.

(*) Get it?

[Sam's the little guy]

Post by Steuard Jensen
Rivendell is, by all accounts, hard to find. Boromir commented that
he had wandered long "by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond,
of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay". In /The Hobbit/,
the characters have a hard time getting there despite being led by
Gandalf (who knew it well!), and even he ended up entering the valley
at the wrong place.

Perhaps there lies is the answer to your question - Rivendell was not
hidden, just that no men from the South remembered where it lay. What
Boromir is emphasising is rather the distance that time has brought
between elves and the men, so that elves and their homes are now more
of a tale than real life.

Anyway, this topic got me thinking - just how big is Rivendell? I get
the impression that there is only a few hundred elves there. This would
also contribute to its obscurity.

[Emma Pease]

Post by Sam's the little guy

Post by Steuard Jensen
Rivendell is, by all accounts, hard to find. Boromir commented that
he had wandered long "by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond,
of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay". In /The Hobbit/,
the characters have a hard time getting there despite being led by
Gandalf (who knew it well!), and even he ended up entering the valley
at the wrong place.

Perhaps there lies is the answer to your question - Rivendell was not
hidden, just that no men from the South remembered where it lay. What
Boromir is emphasising is rather the distance that time has brought
between elves and the men, so that elves and their homes are now more
of a tale than real life.

And Boromir was probably not talking to dwarves who would have known.
Note that Thorin and co. fully expected to find and stop at Rivendell
and Glorin and Gimli seem to have no trouble finding it when they came
to the council (or Bilbo when he left the Shire in the company of
dwarves).

I've always wondered whether Boromir came via Bree and along the East
road or whether he went cross country from the fords at Tharbad.

Post by Sam's the little guy
Anyway, this topic got me thinking - just how big is Rivendell? I get
the impression that there is only a few hundred elves there. This would
also contribute to its obscurity.

How many High Elves were left in Middle Earth.