Discussion:
Castiel = Gandalf ?
(too old to reply)
Stan Brown
2015-05-27 12:08:46 UTC
Permalink
Writing of Gandalf's death and resurrection, with increased powers,
reminds me of this....

I'm a fan of the TV show /Supernatural/. One of the frequently
recurring characters is Castiel the angel. he generally holds back on
his powers, and tries to persuade rather than compel. But in the
final confrontation with Lucifer at the end of season 5, Castiel is
exploded (literally), which we understand to mean that he is not just
mostly dead but completely dead. (Angels do suffer permanent death in
the /Supernatural/ universe, if wounded seriously enough.)

But even before the end of the episode, Castiel is back, and with
enhanced powers. We're led to believe this was direct action by God,
and therefore that Castiel is some kind of messenger from God to
Earth.

The parallels are not perfect, but they're suggestive. I wonder if
the /Supernatural/ writers got the idea from Tolkien, or if it's just
one of those odd literary coincidences.

(In season 6, Castiel succumbs to the effects of having too much
power, just as Gandalf had feared he might do.)
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Lewis
2015-05-29 14:08:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan Brown
The parallels are not perfect, but they're suggestive. I wonder if
the /Supernatural/ writers got the idea from Tolkien, or if it's just
one of those odd literary coincidences.
The idea of the dead hero returning even stronger is ancient and far
predates Television or novels.
--
Bishops move diagonally. That's why they often turn up where the kings
don't expect them to be.
John W Kennedy
2015-05-29 16:09:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Stan Brown
The parallels are not perfect, but they're suggestive. I wonder if
the /Supernatural/ writers got the idea from Tolkien, or if it's just
one of those odd literary coincidences.
The idea of the dead hero returning even stronger is ancient and far
predates Television or novels.
Well, within the Christian interpretation, Gandalf is more or less a
tech rehearsal for Jesus. But the parallel with "Supernatural" is
difficult, because, apart from the Orc problem that Tolkien, himself,
acknowledged, the legendarium has a fairly coherent theology (shades of
Dorothy L. Sayers!), while that of "Supernatural" is, to put it kindly,
a mess (and largely ripped off from Vertigo Comics, anyway).
--
John W Kennedy
"Sweet, was Christ crucified to create this chat?"
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
Stan Brown
2015-05-30 01:40:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
the legendarium has a fairly coherent theology (shades of
Dorothy L. Sayers!), while that of "Supernatural" is, to put it kindly,
a mess (and largely ripped off from Vertigo Comics, anyway).
You're right about that. I think one thing that makes it more of a
mess is taking the names of things in Christian mythology and
applying them to quite different things in the Kripkeverse.

The obvious example is Purgatory: in Christian (well, Roman Catholic)
doctrine it is a place where the spirits of basically good people
purge themselves on their way to Heaven. In /Supernatural/'s world,
it's the home of monsters.

Leviathan(s) is/are another obvious example. Not to mention angels,
who behave quite differently in /Supernatural/ from how they do in
Christian mythology.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Lewis
2015-05-30 15:33:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan Brown
Post by John W Kennedy
the legendarium has a fairly coherent theology (shades of
Dorothy L. Sayers!), while that of "Supernatural" is, to put it kindly,
a mess (and largely ripped off from Vertigo Comics, anyway).
You're right about that. I think one thing that makes it more of a
mess is taking the names of things in Christian mythology and
applying them to quite different things in the Kripkeverse.
The obvious example is Purgatory: in Christian (well, Roman Catholic)
doctrine it is a place where the spirits of basically good people
purge themselves on their way to Heaven. In /Supernatural/'s world,
it's the home of monsters.
Hasn't Purgatory been deprecated?
--
Gehm's Corollary to Clarke's law: Any technology distinguishable from
magic is insufficiently advanced.
John W Kennedy
2015-05-31 00:26:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Stan Brown
Post by John W Kennedy
the legendarium has a fairly coherent theology (shades of
Dorothy L. Sayers!), while that of "Supernatural" is, to put it kindly,
a mess (and largely ripped off from Vertigo Comics, anyway).
You're right about that. I think one thing that makes it more of a
mess is taking the names of things in Christian mythology and
applying them to quite different things in the Kripkeverse.
The obvious example is Purgatory: in Christian (well, Roman Catholic)
doctrine it is a place where the spirits of basically good people
purge themselves on their way to Heaven. In /Supernatural/'s world,
it's the home of monsters.
Hasn't Purgatory been deprecated?
Since Vatican II, it has been greatly de-emphasized, but, as far as I
know, it's still doctrine. But "Supernatural" isn't religion, it's pop
culture.
--
John W Kennedy
If Bill Gates believes in "intelligent design", why can't he apply it
to Windows?
Lewis
2015-05-31 18:56:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by Stan Brown
Post by John W Kennedy
the legendarium has a fairly coherent theology (shades of
Dorothy L. Sayers!), while that of "Supernatural" is, to put it kindly,
a mess (and largely ripped off from Vertigo Comics, anyway).
You're right about that. I think one thing that makes it more of a
mess is taking the names of things in Christian mythology and
applying them to quite different things in the Kripkeverse.
The obvious example is Purgatory: in Christian (well, Roman Catholic)
doctrine it is a place where the spirits of basically good people
purge themselves on their way to Heaven. In /Supernatural/'s world,
it's the home of monsters.
Hasn't Purgatory been deprecated?
Since Vatican II, it has been greatly de-emphasized, but, as far as I
know, it's still doctrine. But "Supernatural" isn't religion, it's pop
culture.
Maybe I was thinking of Limbo.
--
They all have husbands and wives and children and houses and dogs, and
you know, they've all made themselves a part of something and they can
talk about what they do. What am I gonna say? "I killed the president of
Paraguay with a fork. How've you been?"
Stan Brown
2015-05-31 00:53:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Hasn't Purgatory been deprecated?
By whom?
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Steve Morrison
2015-05-31 14:35:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by John W Kennedy
the legendarium has a fairly coherent theology (shades of
Dorothy L. Sayers!), while that of "Supernatural" is, to put it kindly,
a mess (and largely ripped off from Vertigo Comics, anyway).
You're right about that. I think one thing that makes it more of a mess
is taking the names of things in Christian mythology and applying them
to quite different things in the Kripkeverse.
The obvious example is Purgatory: in Christian (well, Roman Catholic)
doctrine it is a place where the spirits of basically good people purge
themselves on their way to Heaven. In /Supernatural/'s world, it's the
home of monsters.
Hasn't Purgatory been deprecated?
I suspect you are thinking of Limbo.
Lewis
2015-05-31 18:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Morrison
Post by Lewis
Post by John W Kennedy
the legendarium has a fairly coherent theology (shades of
Dorothy L. Sayers!), while that of "Supernatural" is, to put it kindly,
a mess (and largely ripped off from Vertigo Comics, anyway).
You're right about that. I think one thing that makes it more of a mess
is taking the names of things in Christian mythology and applying them
to quite different things in the Kripkeverse.
The obvious example is Purgatory: in Christian (well, Roman Catholic)
doctrine it is a place where the spirits of basically good people purge
themselves on their way to Heaven. In /Supernatural/'s world, it's the
home of monsters.
Hasn't Purgatory been deprecated?
I suspect you are thinking of Limbo.
Yep, I think I was.
--
A man, in a word, who should never have been taught to write and whom if
unhappily gifted with that ability, should have been restrained by a Act
of Parliament from writing Reminiscences. - PG Wodehouse
Steve Hayes
2015-05-30 07:03:38 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 29 May 2015 12:09:52 -0400, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by Stan Brown
The parallels are not perfect, but they're suggestive. I wonder if
the /Supernatural/ writers got the idea from Tolkien, or if it's just
one of those odd literary coincidences.
The idea of the dead hero returning even stronger is ancient and far
predates Television or novels.
Well, within the Christian interpretation, Gandalf is more or less a
tech rehearsal for Jesus. But the parallel with "Supernatural" is
difficult, because, apart from the Orc problem that Tolkien, himself,
acknowledged, the legendarium has a fairly coherent theology (shades of
Dorothy L. Sayers!), while that of "Supernatural" is, to put it kindly,
a mess (and largely ripped off from Vertigo Comics, anyway).
I've no idea what this "/Supernatural/" is, but do its writers also
mix up their thees and thous and -ests and -eths?
--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
John W Kennedy
2015-05-30 13:38:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
On Fri, 29 May 2015 12:09:52 -0400, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by Stan Brown
The parallels are not perfect, but they're suggestive. I wonder if
the /Supernatural/ writers got the idea from Tolkien, or if it's just
one of those odd literary coincidences.
The idea of the dead hero returning even stronger is ancient and far
predates Television or novels.
Well, within the Christian interpretation, Gandalf is more or less a
tech rehearsal for Jesus. But the parallel with "Supernatural" is
difficult, because, apart from the Orc problem that Tolkien, himself,
acknowledged, the legendarium has a fairly coherent theology (shades of
Dorothy L. Sayers!), while that of "Supernatural" is, to put it kindly,
a mess (and largely ripped off from Vertigo Comics, anyway).
I've no idea what this "/Supernatural/" is, but do its writers also
mix up their thees and thous and -ests and -eths?
"Supernatural" is a US TV series in the "hereditary champions against
things that go bump in the night" genre (cf. "Buffy" and "Grimm"), set
in the present day, and therefore rarely has occasion to bring up Early
Modern English at all.

I am not clear about what you mean by "also mix up...". Tolkien? Are
you kidding?
--
John W Kennedy
"Never try to take over the international economy based on a radical
feminist agenda if you're not sure your leader isn't a transvestite."
-- David Misch: "She-Spies", "While You Were Out"
Steve Hayes
2015-05-30 18:24:09 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 30 May 2015 09:38:32 -0400, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Steve Hayes
On Fri, 29 May 2015 12:09:52 -0400, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by Stan Brown
The parallels are not perfect, but they're suggestive. I wonder if
the /Supernatural/ writers got the idea from Tolkien, or if it's just
one of those odd literary coincidences.
The idea of the dead hero returning even stronger is ancient and far
predates Television or novels.
Well, within the Christian interpretation, Gandalf is more or less a
tech rehearsal for Jesus. But the parallel with "Supernatural" is
difficult, because, apart from the Orc problem that Tolkien, himself,
acknowledged, the legendarium has a fairly coherent theology (shades of
Dorothy L. Sayers!), while that of "Supernatural" is, to put it kindly,
a mess (and largely ripped off from Vertigo Comics, anyway).
I've no idea what this "/Supernatural/" is, but do its writers also
mix up their thees and thous and -ests and -eths?
"Supernatural" is a US TV series in the "hereditary champions against
things that go bump in the night" genre (cf. "Buffy" and "Grimm"), set
in the present day, and therefore rarely has occasion to bring up Early
Modern English at all.
I am not clear about what you mean by "also mix up...". Tolkien? Are
you kidding?
No, not Tolkien!

I meant did they also mix them up as the writers of various
pseudo-medieval computer games seem to do.
--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
John W Kennedy
2015-05-31 00:09:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 30 May 2015 09:38:32 -0400, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Steve Hayes
On Fri, 29 May 2015 12:09:52 -0400, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by Stan Brown
The parallels are not perfect, but they're suggestive. I wonder if
the /Supernatural/ writers got the idea from Tolkien, or if it's just
one of those odd literary coincidences.
The idea of the dead hero returning even stronger is ancient and far
predates Television or novels.
Well, within the Christian interpretation, Gandalf is more or less a
tech rehearsal for Jesus. But the parallel with "Supernatural" is
difficult, because, apart from the Orc problem that Tolkien, himself,
acknowledged, the legendarium has a fairly coherent theology (shades of
Dorothy L. Sayers!), while that of "Supernatural" is, to put it kindly,
a mess (and largely ripped off from Vertigo Comics, anyway).
I've no idea what this "/Supernatural/" is, but do its writers also
mix up their thees and thous and -ests and -eths?
"Supernatural" is a US TV series in the "hereditary champions against
things that go bump in the night" genre (cf. "Buffy" and "Grimm"), set
in the present day, and therefore rarely has occasion to bring up Early
Modern English at all.
I am not clear about what you mean by "also mix up...". Tolkien? Are
you kidding?
No, not Tolkien!
I meant did they also mix them up as the writers of various
pseudo-medieval computer games seem to do.
It doesn't often come up. In fact, I don't offhand recall it ever
coming up. I certainly don't recall ever being annoyed by it.
--
John W Kennedy
"But now is a new thing which is very old--
that the rich make themselves richer and not poorer,
which is the true Gospel, for the poor's sake."
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
Lewis
2015-05-30 15:32:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by Stan Brown
The parallels are not perfect, but they're suggestive. I wonder if
the /Supernatural/ writers got the idea from Tolkien, or if it's just
one of those odd literary coincidences.
The idea of the dead hero returning even stronger is ancient and far
predates Television or novels.
Well, within the Christian interpretation, Gandalf is more or less a
tech rehearsal for Jesus.
Jesus? That johnny-come-lately? Sorry, the hero returning from death is
much older than that. Sometimes it is Odysseus, presumed dead. Sometimes
it is Heracles or Orpheus or Gilgamesh, journeying to the land of death
and coming back.
--
It's like looking for the farmer's daughter in a haystack, and finding
the needle.
Steve Hayes
2015-05-30 18:26:41 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 30 May 2015 15:32:45 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by Stan Brown
The parallels are not perfect, but they're suggestive. I wonder if
the /Supernatural/ writers got the idea from Tolkien, or if it's just
one of those odd literary coincidences.
The idea of the dead hero returning even stronger is ancient and far
predates Television or novels.
Well, within the Christian interpretation, Gandalf is more or less a
tech rehearsal for Jesus.
Jesus? That johnny-come-lately? Sorry, the hero returning from death is
much older than that. Sometimes it is Odysseus, presumed dead. Sometimes
it is Heracles or Orpheus or Gilgamesh, journeying to the land of death
and coming back.
From a Christian point of view (and Tolkien, after all, was a
Christian) those were all rehearsals for the Big One.

I'm not sure what a "tech" rehearsal is, though.

Jonah might be a good comparison.
--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
John W Kennedy
2015-05-31 00:14:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 30 May 2015 15:32:45 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by Stan Brown
The parallels are not perfect, but they're suggestive. I wonder if
the /Supernatural/ writers got the idea from Tolkien, or if it's just
one of those odd literary coincidences.
The idea of the dead hero returning even stronger is ancient and far
predates Television or novels.
Well, within the Christian interpretation, Gandalf is more or less a
tech rehearsal for Jesus.
Jesus? That johnny-come-lately? Sorry, the hero returning from death is
much older than that. Sometimes it is Odysseus, presumed dead. Sometimes
it is Heracles or Orpheus or Gilgamesh, journeying to the land of death
and coming back.
From a Christian point of view (and Tolkien, after all, was a
Christian) those were all rehearsals for the Big One.
I'm not sure what a "tech" rehearsal is, though.
The rehearsal before the dress rehearsal where you test everything
except the costumes.
Post by Steve Hayes
Jonah might be a good comparison.
--
John W Kennedy
"Those in the seat of power oft forget their failings and seek only the
obeisance of others! Thus is bad government born! Hold in your heart
that you and the people are one, human beings all, and good government
shall arise of its own accord! Such is the path of virtue!"
-- Kazuo Koike. "Lone Wolf and Cub: Thirteen Strings" (tr. Dana Lewis)
Steve Hayes
2015-05-31 04:10:07 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 30 May 2015 20:14:19 -0400, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 30 May 2015 15:32:45 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by Stan Brown
The parallels are not perfect, but they're suggestive. I wonder if
the /Supernatural/ writers got the idea from Tolkien, or if it's just
one of those odd literary coincidences.
The idea of the dead hero returning even stronger is ancient and far
predates Television or novels.
Well, within the Christian interpretation, Gandalf is more or less a
tech rehearsal for Jesus.
Jesus? That johnny-come-lately? Sorry, the hero returning from death is
much older than that. Sometimes it is Odysseus, presumed dead. Sometimes
it is Heracles or Orpheus or Gilgamesh, journeying to the land of death
and coming back.
From a Christian point of view (and Tolkien, after all, was a
Christian) those were all rehearsals for the Big One.
I'm not sure what a "tech" rehearsal is, though.
The rehearsal before the dress rehearsal where you test everything
except the costumes.
Thanks.
--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
Lewis
2015-05-31 18:55:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 30 May 2015 15:32:45 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by Stan Brown
The parallels are not perfect, but they're suggestive. I wonder if
the /Supernatural/ writers got the idea from Tolkien, or if it's just
one of those odd literary coincidences.
The idea of the dead hero returning even stronger is ancient and far
predates Television or novels.
Well, within the Christian interpretation, Gandalf is more or less a
tech rehearsal for Jesus.
Jesus? That johnny-come-lately? Sorry, the hero returning from death is
much older than that. Sometimes it is Odysseus, presumed dead. Sometimes
it is Heracles or Orpheus or Gilgamesh, journeying to the land of death
and coming back.
From a Christian point of view (and Tolkien, after all, was a
Christian) those were all rehearsals for the Big One.
I'm not sure what a "tech" rehearsal is, though.
The rehearsal before the dress rehearsal where you test everything
except the costumes.
There are, if you have time, usually three big rehearsals before opening
night.

A full rehearsal: full production run real time from start to finish.
Might not have all your props in place and you might not have, for
example, your harness for Peter Pan being used.

Tech: as above, but with all props, lighting, cues, effects,
etc included.

Dress: As above, in full costume.

Before the full rehearsal, scenes and dialog will be rehearsed in snips,
and possibly out of order. When I was on stage crew for a community
production of Fiddler on the Roof it was not uncommon for two different
songs from two parts of the play to be rehearsed one right after the
other.
--
I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people
who believe it.
John W Kennedy
2015-05-31 00:10:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by Stan Brown
The parallels are not perfect, but they're suggestive. I wonder if
the /Supernatural/ writers got the idea from Tolkien, or if it's just
one of those odd literary coincidences.
The idea of the dead hero returning even stronger is ancient and far
predates Television or novels.
Well, within the Christian interpretation, Gandalf is more or less a
tech rehearsal for Jesus.
Jesus? That johnny-come-lately? Sorry, the hero returning from death is
much older than that. Sometimes it is Odysseus, presumed dead. Sometimes
it is Heracles or Orpheus or Gilgamesh, journeying to the land of death
and coming back.
What part of "interpretation" didn't you understand?
--
John W Kennedy
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and
Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.
The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being
corrected."
-- G. K. Chesterton
Paul S. Person
2015-05-30 15:53:23 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 27 May 2015 08:08:46 -0400, Stan Brown
Post by Stan Brown
Writing of Gandalf's death and resurrection, with increased powers,
reminds me of this....
I'm a fan of the TV show /Supernatural/. One of the frequently
recurring characters is Castiel the angel. he generally holds back on
his powers, and tries to persuade rather than compel. But in the
final confrontation with Lucifer at the end of season 5, Castiel is
exploded (literally), which we understand to mean that he is not just
mostly dead but completely dead. (Angels do suffer permanent death in
the /Supernatural/ universe, if wounded seriously enough.)
But even before the end of the episode, Castiel is back, and with
enhanced powers. We're led to believe this was direct action by God,
and therefore that Castiel is some kind of messenger from God to
Earth.
The parallels are not perfect, but they're suggestive. I wonder if
the /Supernatural/ writers got the idea from Tolkien, or if it's just
one of those odd literary coincidences.
(In season 6, Castiel succumbs to the effects of having too much
power, just as Gandalf had feared he might do.)
Perhaps the Estate should be informed, they might want to sue ...
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Kip Ingram
2018-05-22 15:52:57 UTC
Permalink
I don't think that's an entirely unreasonable analogy. Gandalf
was a "junior angel." The Valar, which included Melkor / Morgoth
were like "archangels," and I forget the word for the "regular"
angels, which started with an M. Maia, or something like that.
The wizards were the Istari, five of the Maia that were chosen
to go and guide / counsel the children of Eru (Elves and Men).

Sauron is also a Maia, but my understanding is that he was among
the most powerful of the Maia - more powerful than the Istari.
Post by Stan Brown
Writing of Gandalf's death and resurrection, with increased powers,
reminds me of this....
I'm a fan of the TV show /Supernatural/. One of the frequently
recurring characters is Castiel the angel. he generally holds back on
his powers, and tries to persuade rather than compel. But in the
final confrontation with Lucifer at the end of season 5, Castiel is
exploded (literally), which we understand to mean that he is not just
mostly dead but completely dead. (Angels do suffer permanent death in
the /Supernatural/ universe, if wounded seriously enough.)
But even before the end of the episode, Castiel is back, and with
enhanced powers. We're led to believe this was direct action by God,
and therefore that Castiel is some kind of messenger from God to
Earth.
The parallels are not perfect, but they're suggestive. I wonder if
the /Supernatural/ writers got the idea from Tolkien, or if it's just
one of those odd literary coincidences.
(In season 6, Castiel succumbs to the effects of having too much
power, just as Gandalf had feared he might do.)
John W Kennedy
2018-05-22 20:09:00 UTC
Permalink
One Maia, two Maiar. Same for Vala/Valar and Ainu/Ainur (the collective
term for both).

As to the main thesis, a major difference is that Tolkien was a Roman
Catholic, and his universe is meant to mesh with Catholic Christianity.
“Supernatural”, on the other hand... isn’t.
Post by Kip Ingram
I don't think that's an entirely unreasonable analogy. Gandalf
was a "junior angel." The Valar, which included Melkor / Morgoth
were like "archangels," and I forget the word for the "regular"
angels, which started with an M. Maia, or something like that.
The wizards were the Istari, five of the Maia that were chosen
to go and guide / counsel the children of Eru (Elves and Men).
Sauron is also a Maia, but my understanding is that he was among
the most powerful of the Maia - more powerful than the Istari.
Post by Stan Brown
Writing of Gandalf's death and resurrection, with increased powers,
reminds me of this....
I'm a fan of the TV show /Supernatural/. One of the frequently
recurring characters is Castiel the angel. he generally holds back on
his powers, and tries to persuade rather than compel. But in the
final confrontation with Lucifer at the end of season 5, Castiel is
exploded (literally), which we understand to mean that he is not just
mostly dead but completely dead. (Angels do suffer permanent death in
the /Supernatural/ universe, if wounded seriously enough.)
But even before the end of the episode, Castiel is back, and with
enhanced powers. We're led to believe this was direct action by God,
and therefore that Castiel is some kind of messenger from God to
Earth.
The parallels are not perfect, but they're suggestive. I wonder if
the /Supernatural/ writers got the idea from Tolkien, or if it's just
one of those odd literary coincidences.
(In season 6, Castiel succumbs to the effects of having too much
power, just as Gandalf had feared he might do.)
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
tenworld
2018-06-12 16:40:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
One Maia, two Maiar. Same for Vala/Valar and Ainu/Ainur (the collective
term for both).
As to the main thesis, a major difference is that Tolkien was a Roman
Catholic, and his universe is meant to mesh with Catholic Christianity.
“Supernatural”, on the other hand... isn’t.
Post by Kip Ingram
I don't think that's an entirely unreasonable analogy. Gandalf
was a "junior angel." The Valar, which included Melkor / Morgoth
were like "archangels," and I forget the word for the "regular"
angels, which started with an M. Maia, or something like that.
The wizards were the Istari, five of the Maia that were chosen
to go and guide / counsel the children of Eru (Elves and Men).
Sauron is also a Maia, but my understanding is that he was among
the most powerful of the Maia - more powerful than the Istari.
the main difference between ME and catholic theology is that the archangels
were primarily messengers and guards in the bible, but in ME they managed
the action except when 'God' stepped in to overrule something. In that respect
the Istari were more like archangels and there was another higher level of angel
in ME.
Paul S. Person
2018-06-12 18:01:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by tenworld
Post by John W Kennedy
One Maia, two Maiar. Same for Vala/Valar and Ainu/Ainur (the collective
term for both).
As to the main thesis, a major difference is that Tolkien was a Roman
Catholic, and his universe is meant to mesh with Catholic Christianity.
“Supernatural”, on the other hand... isn’t.
Post by Kip Ingram
I don't think that's an entirely unreasonable analogy. Gandalf
was a "junior angel." The Valar, which included Melkor / Morgoth
were like "archangels," and I forget the word for the "regular"
angels, which started with an M. Maia, or something like that.
The wizards were the Istari, five of the Maia that were chosen
to go and guide / counsel the children of Eru (Elves and Men).
Sauron is also a Maia, but my understanding is that he was among
the most powerful of the Maia - more powerful than the Istari.
the main difference between ME and catholic theology is that the archangels
were primarily messengers and guards in the bible, but in ME they managed
the action except when 'God' stepped in to overrule something. In that respect
the Istari were more like archangels and there was another higher level of angel
in ME.
The opposition of Manwe and Morgoth is particularly reminisent of
Manichaeism, where a good god and a bad god duke it out down here
while an overarching god (Eru) looks on. Of course, Manwe and Morgoth
are not gods, at least, not after the /Book of Lost Tales/.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
John W Kennedy
2018-06-13 17:04:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S. Person
Post by tenworld
Post by John W Kennedy
One Maia, two Maiar. Same for Vala/Valar and Ainu/Ainur (the collective
term for both).
As to the main thesis, a major difference is that Tolkien was a Roman
Catholic, and his universe is meant to mesh with Catholic Christianity.
“Supernatural”, on the other hand... isn’t.
Post by Kip Ingram
I don't think that's an entirely unreasonable analogy. Gandalf
was a "junior angel." The Valar, which included Melkor / Morgoth
were like "archangels," and I forget the word for the "regular"
angels, which started with an M. Maia, or something like that.
The wizards were the Istari, five of the Maia that were chosen
to go and guide / counsel the children of Eru (Elves and Men).
Sauron is also a Maia, but my understanding is that he was among
the most powerful of the Maia - more powerful than the Istari.
the main difference between ME and catholic theology is that the archangels
were primarily messengers and guards in the bible, but in ME they managed
the action except when 'God' stepped in to overrule something. In that respect
the Istari were more like archangels and there was another higher level of angel
in ME.
The opposition of Manwe and Morgoth is particularly reminisent of
Manichaeism, where a good god and a bad god duke it out down here
while an overarching god (Eru) looks on. Of course, Manwe and Morgoth
are not gods, at least, not after the /Book of Lost Tales/.
Manicheanism is more purely dualistic than that. In Tolkien, as in
Christianity, the one, eternal God created everything, and Manwe and
Melkor are themselves created beings, comparable to St. Michael and
Lucifer.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
Paul S. Person
2018-06-14 16:22:45 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 13:04:45 -0400, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Paul S. Person
Post by tenworld
Post by John W Kennedy
One Maia, two Maiar. Same for Vala/Valar and Ainu/Ainur (the collective
term for both).
As to the main thesis, a major difference is that Tolkien was a Roman
Catholic, and his universe is meant to mesh with Catholic Christianity.
“Supernatural”, on the other hand... isn’t.
Post by Kip Ingram
I don't think that's an entirely unreasonable analogy. Gandalf
was a "junior angel." The Valar, which included Melkor / Morgoth
were like "archangels," and I forget the word for the "regular"
angels, which started with an M. Maia, or something like that.
The wizards were the Istari, five of the Maia that were chosen
to go and guide / counsel the children of Eru (Elves and Men).
Sauron is also a Maia, but my understanding is that he was among
the most powerful of the Maia - more powerful than the Istari.
the main difference between ME and catholic theology is that the archangels
were primarily messengers and guards in the bible, but in ME they managed
the action except when 'God' stepped in to overrule something. In that respect
the Istari were more like archangels and there was another higher level of angel
in ME.
The opposition of Manwe and Morgoth is particularly reminisent of
Manichaeism, where a good god and a bad god duke it out down here
while an overarching god (Eru) looks on. Of course, Manwe and Morgoth
are not gods, at least, not after the /Book of Lost Tales/.
Manicheanism is more purely dualistic than that. In Tolkien, as in
Christianity, the one, eternal God created everything, and Manwe and
Melkor are themselves created beings, comparable to St. Michael and
Lucifer.
I agree, with the proviso that this world is /not/ conceived as a
battleground between St Michael and Lucifer. Mostly because Lucifer
has already been defeated, although he doesn't seem to know it yet.

This is why I said "reminiscent of". (or would have if I had spelled
it right the first time).

But thanks for confirming my point!
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
John W Kennedy
2018-06-14 23:56:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S. Person
On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 13:04:45 -0400, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Paul S. Person
Post by tenworld
Post by John W Kennedy
One Maia, two Maiar. Same for Vala/Valar and Ainu/Ainur (the collective
term for both).
As to the main thesis, a major difference is that Tolkien was a Roman
Catholic, and his universe is meant to mesh with Catholic Christianity.
“Supernatural”, on the other hand... isn’t.
Post by Kip Ingram
I don't think that's an entirely unreasonable analogy. Gandalf
was a "junior angel." The Valar, which included Melkor / Morgoth
were like "archangels," and I forget the word for the "regular"
angels, which started with an M. Maia, or something like that.
The wizards were the Istari, five of the Maia that were chosen
to go and guide / counsel the children of Eru (Elves and Men).
Sauron is also a Maia, but my understanding is that he was among
the most powerful of the Maia - more powerful than the Istari.
the main difference between ME and catholic theology is that the archangels
were primarily messengers and guards in the bible, but in ME they managed
the action except when 'God' stepped in to overrule something. In that respect
the Istari were more like archangels and there was another higher level of angel
in ME.
The opposition of Manwe and Morgoth is particularly reminisent of
Manichaeism, where a good god and a bad god duke it out down here
while an overarching god (Eru) looks on. Of course, Manwe and Morgoth
are not gods, at least, not after the /Book of Lost Tales/.
Manicheanism is more purely dualistic than that. In Tolkien, as in
Christianity, the one, eternal God created everything, and Manwe and
Melkor are themselves created beings, comparable to St. Michael and
Lucifer.
I agree, with the proviso that this world is /not/ conceived as a
battleground between St Michael and Lucifer. Mostly because Lucifer
has already been defeated, although he doesn't seem to know it yet.
And Melkor was defeated in the Ainulindalë. (And I’m sure Tolkien would
have added “and even before”.)
Post by Paul S. Person
This is why I said "reminiscent of". (or would have if I had spelled
it right the first time).
But thanks for confirming my point!
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
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