deus ex machina

Post by Rich D
At the end, Gandalf calls an Uber taxi, gets a lift to the
volcano, picks up Frodo and Sam, then home. Easy as pie.
Does anyone fail to see how this eviscerates the
central plot of the trilogy? Does the term 'deus
ex machina' mean anything to you?

This is not a novel question, nor is the (fairly easy to come up with)
answer.

Here's a recent presentation of the answer:

https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-lotr-plot-hole-mordor

Paul S Person

2023-04-15 15:47:05 UTC

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:53:37 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield

This is not a novel question, nor is the (fairly easy to come up with)
answer.
https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-lotr-plot-hole-mordor

Sadly, it ignores my favorite answer:

because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
be reduced to raising sheep for his family

--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Steve Morrison

2023-04-15 16:41:38 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:53:37 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield

This is not a novel question, nor is the (fairly easy to come up with)
answer.
https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-lotr-plot-hole-mordor

because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
be reduced to raising sheep for his family

The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
have used its wings to fly after them, duh!

Paul S Person

2023-04-16 15:46:08 UTC

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 16:41:38 -0000 (UTC), Steve Morrison

Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:53:37 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield

This is not a novel question, nor is the (fairly easy to come up with)
answer.
https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-lotr-plot-hole-mordor

because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
be reduced to raising sheep for his family

The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
have used its wings to fly after them, duh!

If you are responding to me:

Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
puppy and do no such thing.

If you are providing an alternate answer:

That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
the book.

Also, killing Balrogs is easy:
1. Be high up.
2. Grab onto Balrog.
3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.
This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero. It is documented not only in
/LOTR/ but in /The Silmarillion/ as well.

--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Stan Brown

2023-04-16 18:50:16 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
the book.

For some value of "rouse".

In Bk II Ch 2 "The Council of Elrond," Glóin says "Moria! Moria!
Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the
nameless fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the
children of Durin fled." The Tale of Years dates that at T.A. 1980.

Whether the Balrog went back to sleep is debatable. My own feeling is
that it stayed awake, active to the extent of ruling the Orcs of
Moria. If I'm correct, then when Pippin threw the rock down the well,
the Orcs heard it and went to the Balrog for instructions. Or perhaps
the drums were how they sent a message to the Balrog.

Though it seems unlikely to me that one tossed rock could have
wakened the Balrog from a millennium-long slumber, I admit your
interpretation of Bk IV Ch 4 is possible.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
https://BrownMath.com/
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
Tolkien letters FAQ: https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
FAQ of the Rings: https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

Paul S Person

2023-04-17 15:18:33 UTC

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 11:50:16 -0700, Stan Brown

Post by Paul S Person
That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
the book.

For some value of "rouse".
In Bk II Ch 2 "The Council of Elrond," Glóin says "Moria! Moria!
Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the
nameless fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the
children of Durin fled." The Tale of Years dates that at T.A. 1980.
Whether the Balrog went back to sleep is debatable. My own feeling is
that it stayed awake, active to the extent of ruling the Orcs of
Moria. If I'm correct, then when Pippin threw the rock down the well,
the Orcs heard it and went to the Balrog for instructions. Or perhaps
the drums were how they sent a message to the Balrog.

Actually, that would satisfy my intended meaning for "arouse": not so
much "wake up" as "attract the attention of".

Sorry for any confusion.

Post by Stan Brown
Though it seems unlikely to me that one tossed rock could have
wakened the Balrog from a millennium-long slumber, I admit your
interpretation of Bk IV Ch 4 is possible.

--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Louis Epstein

2023-05-02 04:31:01 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
the book.

For some value of "rouse".
In Bk II Ch 2 "The Council of Elrond," Gl?in says "Moria! Moria!
Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the
nameless fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the
children of Durin fled." The Tale of Years dates that at T.A. 1980.
Whether the Balrog went back to sleep is debatable. My own feeling is
that it stayed awake, active to the extent of ruling the Orcs of
Moria. If I'm correct, then when Pippin threw the rock down the well,
the Orcs heard it and went to the Balrog for instructions. Or perhaps
the drums were how they sent a message to the Balrog.

Dain saw the Balrog on the occasion of his killing Azog...

Post by Stan Brown
Though it seems unlikely to me that one tossed rock could have
wakened the Balrog from a millennium-long slumber, I admit your
interpretation of Bk IV Ch 4 is possible.

...so any slumber would surely have not been that long.

(Not sure if Stan needs to update his blockfile for my new email,
but regardless,the Monarch retains the inalienable right to do
AND the common sense not to do just about anything Stan claims
he can not do).

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Paul S Person

2023-05-02 15:06:51 UTC

On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:31:01 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein

Post by Paul S Person
That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
the book.

Dain saw the Balrog on the occasion of his killing Azog...

Post by Stan Brown
Though it seems unlikely to me that one tossed rock could have
wakened the Balrog from a millennium-long slumber, I admit your
interpretation of Bk IV Ch 4 is possible.

...so any slumber would surely have not been that long.

Which is why, in my reply to Stan, I noted that "rouse" was intended
to mean something like "attract the attention of".

Post by Louis Epstein
(Not sure if Stan needs to update his blockfile for my new email,
but regardless,the Monarch retains the inalienable right to do
AND the common sense not to do just about anything Stan claims
he can not do).
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Rich D

2023-04-17 17:26:38 UTC

because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
be reduced to raising sheep for his family

The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
have used its wings to fly after them, duh!

Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
puppy and do no such thing.

This assumes that Balrog is a servant of the ring. My impression is
they're a refractory lot, who signed a detente agreement with Sorehead.
Stalin-Hitler, that sort of thing -

Post by Paul S Person
1. Be high up.
2. Grab onto Balrog.
3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.

What's the population of Balrogs in Middle Earth?
And what's their evolutionary origin? Has anyone done a DNA
analysis? I guess they evolved from amphibians -

Post by Paul S Person
This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero.

Gandalf was one of those Lazarus types, apparently -

--
Rich

Paul S Person

2023-04-18 15:51:56 UTC

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 10:26:38 -0700 (PDT), Rich D

because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
be reduced to raising sheep for his family

The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
have used its wings to fly after them, duh!

Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
puppy and do no such thing.

This assumes that Balrog is a servant of the ring. My impression is
they're a refractory lot, who signed a detente agreement with Sorehead.
Stalin-Hitler, that sort of thing -

IIRC, JRRT's final theory was that the Balrog's were lesser Maiar who
served Morgoth. As Morgoth's replacement, this one would serve Sauron
and, since the Ring held much of Sauron's power, the Ring as well.

BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
task.

In the earliest version, they were (or would have been) fire
elementals who, of course, served Melkor.

Post by Paul S Person
1. Be high up.
2. Grab onto Balrog.
3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.

What's the population of Balrogs in Middle Earth?
And what's their evolutionary origin? Has anyone done a DNA
analysis? I guess they evolved from amphibians -

Depends on the era/when the story was written, IIRC. Some references
to large numbers exist, but others seem to treat them as only a few.

And, fire elemental or Maia, they would not have "evolved" from
anything. They would merely have assumed physical form.

Post by Paul S Person
This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero.

Gandalf was one of those Lazarus types, apparently -

Gandalf was revived and returned by Eru Iluvatar Himself.

With Manwe's pussy restrictions relaxed, if not completely removed.

Glorfindel killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin. There is some
ambiguity about whether or not this is the same Glorfindel as the
Glorfindel found in /LOTR/.

For Men and Elves, at least, death merely takes the fea to the Halls
of Mandos. The Elves, at least, can be reincarnated and returned.
There are at least two different theories of how this worked. As with
the origin of the Orcs, JRRT never seems to have made a final decision
about this.

Reading the books might be helpful.

Not just /The Hobbit/, /LOTR/, and /The Silmarillion/. The /History of
Middle Earth/ set has a lot of material on these issues. And the
/Unfinished Tales/ should not be overlooked.

--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Axel Reichert

2023-04-18 17:09:44 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
IIRC, JRRT's final theory was that the Balrog's were lesser Maiar who
served Morgoth. As Morgoth's replacement, this one would serve Sauron
and, since the Ring held much of Sauron's power, the Ring as well.

One could as well argue that a Balrog would not feel inclined to serve
another Maia. There is a prominent precedence with Saruman versus the
other members of the White Council.

Best regards

Axel

Paul S Person

2023-04-19 15:35:31 UTC

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 19:09:44 +0200, Axel Reichert

Post by Axel Reichert

One could as well argue that a Balrog would not feel inclined to serve
another Maia. There is a prominent precedence with Saruman versus the
other members of the White Council.

Gwaihir is not a Maia.

It is the /Ring/ the Balrog would bow to.

Try to keep up.

--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Axel Reichert

2023-04-19 18:37:17 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
Gwaihir is not a Maia.

Right, sorry, I was distracted/lost the context and was thinking about
an imaginary conflict between Sauron and the Balrog.

Best regards

Axel

Stan Brown

2023-04-19 23:56:01 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
task.

I'm sure Sauron could have done it, only he had no motive. Could
Saruman (Curunír)? Maybe.

But it doesn't necessarily take a Maia to kill a Balrog, as you

Post by Paul S Person
Glorfindel [an Elf] killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin.

Further example:

Gothmog Lord of Balrogs was a badass who had killed Fëanor some
centuries earlier; in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad he killed High King
Fingon with the help of a second, unnamed, Balrog.

Still, Gothmog was killed by Ecthelion of the Fountain, an Elf of
Gondolin, presumably a Noldo, though Ecthelion also lost his life in
their battle.

Paul S Person

2023-04-20 15:42:29 UTC

On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 16:56:01 -0700, Stan Brown

Post by Paul S Person
BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
task.

I'm sure Sauron could have done it, only he had no motive. Could
Saruman (Curunír)? Maybe.

Certainly they could and, since both were stronger than Gandalf, they
might even have done it better.

But neither were present when the need arose.

Try to follow along, eh?

Post by Stan Brown
But it doesn't necessarily take a Maia to kill a Balrog, as you

Post by Paul S Person
Glorfindel [an Elf] killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin.

I never said it did. What I /did/ say was that this is the technique
known to work:
1. Be at a great height over water (the side of a mountain, say)
2. Grab hold of the Balrog.
3. Jump off into the water below.
Anyone can kill a Balrog if they can manage all three steps.

Post by Stan Brown
Gothmog Lord of Balrogs was a badass who had killed Fëanor some
centuries earlier; in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad he killed High King
Fingon with the help of a second, unnamed, Balrog.
Still, Gothmog was killed by Ecthelion of the Fountain, an Elf of
Gondolin, presumably a Noldo, though Ecthelion also lost his life in
their battle.

The person killing the Balrog /always/ becomes a dead hero.

Falling into water from a great height has a tendency to be fatal.

--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Rich D

2023-04-20 18:28:17 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
task.

I'm sure Sauron could have done it, only he had no motive.

If Sorehead had conquered Middle Earth, would he
treat Moria as a mine field?

Post by Paul S Person
1. Be at a great height over water (the side of a mountain, say)
2. Grab hold of the Balrog.
3. Jump off into the water below.

Lotsa killin' and revenge in that world. Reminds me of the
Old Testament, or maybe Texas -

How come Gandalf reincarnated, but not Balrog? If
they were both of the same breed -

--
Rich

Julian Bradfield

2023-04-20 19:48:36 UTC

Post by Rich D
How come Gandalf reincarnated, but not Balrog? If
they were both of the same breed -

Gandalf was reincarnated by divine intervention. Indeed, he was
incarnated in the first place by divine intervention.
The Balrogs, as Maiar, were presumably "incarnate" only in the same
way as Sauron - becoming bound, but not irrevocably, to their favoured
bodies by force of habit and spending of power.

Stan Brown

2023-04-20 23:52:30 UTC

Post by Rich D
How come Gandalf reincarnated, but not Balrog? If
they were both of the same breed -

That was special one-time action by Eru. The Valar (specifically
Manwë) had sent Gandalf to Middle-earth originally, with a lot of
restrictions on his actions because the Valar were always afraid of
overawing Men and Elves. But when Eru(*) sent Gandalf back to Middle-
earth, he was given greater power as well as fewer restrictions. "The
old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with Saruman."

(*) I don't recall that this was stated explicitly in LotR, but it is
stated in Letters, e.g. number 156.

Louis Epstein

2023-05-02 04:39:40 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 16:56:01 -0700, Stan Brown

Post by Paul S Person
BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
task.

I'm sure Sauron could have done it, only he had no motive. Could
Saruman (Curun?r)? Maybe.

Certainly they could and, since both were stronger than Gandalf, they
might even have done it better.
But neither were present when the need arose.
Try to follow along, eh?

Post by Stan Brown
But it doesn't necessarily take a Maia to kill a Balrog, as you

Post by Paul S Person
Glorfindel [an Elf] killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin.

I never said it did. What I /did/ say was that this is the technique
1. Be at a great height over water (the side of a mountain, say)
2. Grab hold of the Balrog.
3. Jump off into the water below.
Anyone can kill a Balrog if they can manage all three steps.

Not necessarily without chasing it up the Endless Stair
afterward!!

Post by Stan Brown
Gothmog Lord of Balrogs was a badass who had killed F?anor some
centuries earlier; in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad he killed High King
Fingon with the help of a second, unnamed, Balrog.
Still, Gothmog was killed by Ecthelion of the Fountain, an Elf of
Gondolin, presumably a Noldo, though Ecthelion also lost his life in
their battle.

The person killing the Balrog /always/ becomes a dead hero.
Falling into water from a great height has a tendency to be fatal.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Paul S Person

2023-05-02 15:08:13 UTC

On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:39:40 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein

Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 16:56:01 -0700, Stan Brown

Post by Paul S Person
BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
task.

I'm sure Sauron could have done it, only he had no motive. Could
Saruman (Curun?r)? Maybe.

Certainly they could and, since both were stronger than Gandalf, they
might even have done it better.
But neither were present when the need arose.
Try to follow along, eh?

Post by Stan Brown
But it doesn't necessarily take a Maia to kill a Balrog, as you

Post by Paul S Person
Glorfindel [an Elf] killed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin.

Not necessarily without chasing it up the Endless Stair
afterward!!

Well, maybe that's what happens when the water isn't actually deep
enough.

--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Louis Epstein

2023-05-02 04:37:39 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 10:26:38 -0700 (PDT), Rich D

because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
be reduced to raising sheep for his family

The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
have used its wings to fly after them, duh!

Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
puppy and do no such thing.

This assumes that Balrog is a servant of the ring. My impression is
they're a refractory lot, who signed a detente agreement with Sorehead.
Stalin-Hitler, that sort of thing -

So did "Even Sauron knows them not;they are older than he" refer to
the Balrogs or not?

(Another wrinkle in the conundrum of who is really the eldest of
beings in Middle-Earth,beyond the contradictory claims of Treebeard
and Bombadil).

Post by Paul S Person
BTW, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and Radogast were all Maiar. That is
why Gandalf had to face the Balrog himself: only he was equal to the
task.
In the earliest version, they were (or would have been) fire
elementals who, of course, served Melkor.

Post by Paul S Person
1. Be high up.
2. Grab onto Balrog.
3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.

What's the population of Balrogs in Middle Earth?
And what's their evolutionary origin? Has anyone done a DNA
analysis? I guess they evolved from amphibians -

Depends on the era/when the story was written, IIRC. Some references
to large numbers exist, but others seem to treat them as only a few.

Large number in First Age,indeterminate small number by Third...one
should still be cautious even after the Third in declaring them
extinct.

Post by Paul S Person
And, fire elemental or Maia, they would not have "evolved" from
anything. They would merely have assumed physical form.

Post by Paul S Person
This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero.

Gandalf was one of those Lazarus types, apparently -

Some consider this settled in the affirmative.

Post by Paul S Person
For Men and Elves, at least, death merely takes the fea to the Halls
of Mandos. The Elves, at least, can be reincarnated and returned.
There are at least two different theories of how this worked. As with
the origin of the Orcs, JRRT never seems to have made a final decision
about this.
Reading the books might be helpful.
Not just /The Hobbit/, /LOTR/, and /The Silmarillion/. The /History of
Middle Earth/ set has a lot of material on these issues. And the
/Unfinished Tales/ should not be overlooked.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Paul S Person

2023-05-02 15:10:52 UTC

On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:37:39 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein

Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 10:26:38 -0700 (PDT), Rich D

because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
be reduced to raising sheep for his family

The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
have used its wings to fly after them, duh!

Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
puppy and do no such thing.

This assumes that Balrog is a servant of the ring. My impression is
they're a refractory lot, who signed a detente agreement with Sorehead.
Stalin-Hitler, that sort of thing -

So did "Even Sauron knows them not;they are older than he" refer to
the Balrogs or not?

Good question. Sadly, I cannot think of an answer.

So perhaps JRRT's final theory was /not/ that the Balrog's were lesser
Maiar.

Post by Louis Epstein
(Another wrinkle in the conundrum of who is really the eldest of
beings in Middle-Earth,beyond the contradictory claims of Treebeard
and Bombadil).

Post by Paul S Person
1. Be high up.
2. Grab onto Balrog.
3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.

What's the population of Balrogs in Middle Earth?
And what's their evolutionary origin? Has anyone done a DNA
analysis? I guess they evolved from amphibians -

Depends on the era/when the story was written, IIRC. Some references
to large numbers exist, but others seem to treat them as only a few.

Large number in First Age,indeterminate small number by Third...one
should still be cautious even after the Third in declaring them
extinct.

Post by Paul S Person
And, fire elemental or Maia, they would not have "evolved" from
anything. They would merely have assumed physical form.

Post by Paul S Person
This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero.

Gandalf was one of those Lazarus types, apparently -

Some consider this settled in the affirmative.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Stan Brown

2023-05-02 23:59:41 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:37:39 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein

Post by Louis Epstein
So did "Even Sauron knows them not;they are older than he" refer to
the Balrogs or not?

Good question. Sadly, I cannot think of an answer.
So perhaps JRRT's final theory was /not/ that the Balrog's were lesser
Maiar.

A fuller version of the quote is:

"'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted.
Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into
dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Glóin.
Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is
gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older
than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to
darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only
hope' ..."

I think it's pretty clear that Gandalf is drawing a distinction
between the Balrog and those "nameless things".

But I don't see how they can be older than Sauron: he was created by
Eru before there was an Arda. Maybe JRRT meant that they had
descended to Arda before Sauron did.

Regarding the origin of the Balrogs, the commentary to "Of the Coming
of the Elves" on page 165 of HoMe X, in "The Later Quenta
Silmarillion", says that JRRT wrote in the margin "See Valaquenta for
true account". Christopher Tolkien expands on that with "This is a
reference to the passage which appears in the published Silmarillion
on p. 31" where JRRT clearly stated that the Balrogs were Maiar.

Paul S Person

2023-05-03 16:50:40 UTC

On Tue, 2 May 2023 16:59:41 -0700, Stan Brown

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:37:39 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein

Post by Louis Epstein
So did "Even Sauron knows them not;they are older than he" refer to
the Balrogs or not?

Good question. Sadly, I cannot think of an answer.
So perhaps JRRT's final theory was /not/ that the Balrog's were lesser
Maiar.

"'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted.
Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into
dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Glóin.
Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is
gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older
than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to
darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only
hope' ..."
I think it's pretty clear that Gandalf is drawing a distinction
between the Balrog and those "nameless things".
But I don't see how they can be older than Sauron: he was created by
Eru before there was an Arda. Maybe JRRT meant that they had
descended to Arda before Sauron did.
Regarding the origin of the Balrogs, the commentary to "Of the Coming
of the Elves" on page 165 of HoMe X, in "The Later Quenta
Silmarillion", says that JRRT wrote in the margin "See Valaquenta for
true account". Christopher Tolkien expands on that with "This is a
reference to the passage which appears in the published Silmarillion
on p. 31" where JRRT clearly stated that the Balrogs were Maiar.

Thanks for this info!

--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Rich D

2023-05-03 21:10:57 UTC

Post by Stan Brown
Christopher Tolkien expands on that with "This is a
reference to the passage which appears in the published Silmarillion
on p. 31" where JRRT clearly stated that the Balrogs were Maiar.

The Maiar are gods, n'est-ce pas? Immortal. So what happens when
one of them, e.g. Balrog, is killed? Is heaven segregated into several chambers?

Gandalf came back, but the general policy is unclear -

--
Rich

Stan Brown

2023-05-04 12:01:13 UTC

The Maiar are gods, n'est-ce pas? Immortal.

God =/= immortal. The Elves were immortal, and the
Ents.

Tolkien and his characters seem to reserve the term
"gods" for the Valar. Of the Ainur who were present at
the creation of the world and entered into it, the
greatest were the Valar. The Maiar were usually their
helpers or servants.

Post by Rich D
So what happens when one of them, e.g. Balrog, is killed? Is heaven
segregated into several chambers?

Well, what happened when Sauron and Saruman were
killed? Remember that they were both Maiar, but it sure
looked like they became nothingness. I'd assume a
Balrog would be the same.

Sauron didn't die permanently when Gil-Galad and
Elendil "killed" him at the end of the Second Age,
because his power bound up in the Ring eventually let
him re-form. But when it was destroyed, that power was
lost and Sauron faded away.

Post by Rich D
Gandalf came back, but the general policy is unclear -

Apart from Gandalf (Olórin), as far as I can recall all
the other Maiar who died had chosen the path of evil.
That seemed to have the side effect that when they died
they ended.(*)

So, Gandalf's case, if I haven't forgotten something,
was unique. He didn't go to any hall, and he was sent
back to Middle-earth not by any Vala but by Eru.

"Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought
and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not
tell. Naked I was sent back ? for a brief time, until
my task is done." Admittedly, those words from /LotR/
are pretty obscure, but IIRC Tolkien clarifies the
position in /Letters/.
--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
https://BrownMath.com/
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
FAQ of the Rings:
https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda:
https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

Paul S Person

2023-05-04 15:24:51 UTC

On Thu, 4 May 2023 05:01:13 -0700, Stan Brown

The Maiar are gods, n'est-ce pas? Immortal.

God =/= immortal. The Elves were immortal, and the
Ents.
Tolkien and his characters seem to reserve the term
"gods" for the Valar. Of the Ainur who were present at
the creation of the world and entered into it, the
greatest were the Valar. The Maiar were usually their
helpers or servants.

Post by Rich D
So what happens when one of them, e.g. Balrog, is killed? Is heaven
segregated into several chambers?

Well, what happened when Sauron and Saruman were
killed? Remember that they were both Maiar, but it sure
looked like they became nothingness. I'd assume a
Balrog would be the same.

Saruman, at least, looked to the West (IIRC) before disappating. So
this may mean that he was refused re-entry to the Blessed Land rather
than it being a natural result.

Well, unless good ol' Manwe bound them in such a way that they could
/never/ come back, of course.

Post by Stan Brown
Sauron didn't die permanently when Gil-Galad and
Elendil "killed" him at the end of the Second Age,
because his power bound up in the Ring eventually let
him re-form. But when it was destroyed, that power was
lost and Sauron faded away.

Post by Rich D
Gandalf came back, but the general policy is unclear -

I don't recall any others either.

Post by Stan Brown
"Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought
and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not
tell. Naked I was sent back ? for a brief time, until
my task is done." Admittedly, those words from /LotR/
are pretty obscure, but IIRC Tolkien clarifies the
position in /Letters/.

--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Julian Bradfield

2023-05-04 14:05:41 UTC

Post by Rich D
The Maiar are gods, n'est-ce pas? Immortal. So what happens when
one of them, e.g. Balrog, is killed? Is heaven segregated into several chambers?
Gandalf came back, but the general policy is unclear -

Gandalf was different - he was actually incarnated into a real body,
rather than just assuming a form. When he was "killed", he was
discarnated, and presumably not feeling too good, but Eru intervened
and re-incarnated him with added super-soaking whiteness.

The Balrogs were probably like Sauron - by force of habit, and partly
by some mysterious rule that "evil" creatures become more tightly
bound to their fánar (bodies), they were so bound to their fánar
that when "killed", they did not have the strength to create a new
one, and spent the rest of the life of Arda as forlorn spirits wailing
silently.

Paul S Person

2023-05-04 15:26:04 UTC

On Thu, 4 May 2023 14:05:41 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield

Gandalf was different - he was actually incarnated into a real body,
rather than just assuming a form. When he was "killed", he was
discarnated, and presumably not feeling too good, but Eru intervened
and re-incarnated him with added super-soaking whiteness.
The Balrogs were probably like Sauron - by force of habit, and partly
by some mysterious rule that "evil" creatures become more tightly
bound to their fánar (bodies), they were so bound to their fánar
that when "killed", they did not have the strength to create a new
one, and spent the rest of the life of Arda as forlorn spirits wailing
silently.

Or they are banned from Valinor as having served Morgoth and so have
nowhere else to go.

--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Louis Epstein

2023-05-02 04:32:24 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 16:41:38 -0000 (UTC), Steve Morrison

Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:53:37 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield

This is not a novel question, nor is the (fairly easy to come up with)
answer.
https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-lotr-plot-hole-mordor

because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
be reduced to raising sheep for his family

The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
have used its wings to fly after them, duh!

Since Gwaihir would have the Ring, the Balrog would be his faithful
puppy and do no such thing.
That's possible, although how the Balrog would find out about it is
hard to tell. It took a rock dropped down a deep well to rouse it in
the book.
1. Be high up.
2. Grab onto Balrog.
3. Fall all the way down into a body of water.
This, of course, makes you a (dead) hero. It is documented not only in
/LOTR/ but in /The Silmarillion/ as well.

The TLotR procedure involves chasing the Balrog from the base
of a near-to-bottomless pit to the peak of Zirak-Zigil,so it's
not necessarily that easy.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Paul S Person

2023-05-02 15:11:49 UTC

On Tue, 2 May 2023 04:32:24 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein

Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 16:41:38 -0000 (UTC), Steve Morrison

Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:53:37 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield

This is not a novel question, nor is the (fairly easy to come up with)
answer.
https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-lotr-plot-hole-mordor

because then Gwaihir would become the Lord of the Rings, and Men would
be reduced to raising sheep for his family

The answer is obvious: if they had done that, then the Balrog would
have used its wings to fly after them, duh!

The TLotR procedure involves chasing the Balrog from the base
of a near-to-bottomless pit to the peak of Zirak-Zigil,so it's
not necessarily that easy.

Having enough water at the bottom appears to help a lot.

--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

Stan Brown

2023-04-15 17:23:03 UTC

This is not a novel question, nor is the (fairly easy to come up with)
answer.
https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-lotr-plot-hole-mordor

They lost me at "That is, if Gandalf can ask a moth to bring him a
giant eagle to rescue him from Saruman in The Fellowship of the
Ring".

Steve Morrison

2023-04-19 21:32:32 UTC

Thinking about it, it seems to me that there /is/ a problem here.
Granted that sending Eagles with the Ring wouldn't have worked because
of the need for stealth and because of Mordor's "air defenses", the
question becomes "How did they know this ahead of time?"

The trouble is that at the time of the Council of Elrond, the winged
Nazgul had never yet been seen. Remember that when the Fellowship
first encountered one of them months later, they had no idea what they
had just seen or what Legolas had shot down. So how did the Council
/know/ that Sauron had servants who could attack an Eagle in the air?

In any case, the idea should at least have been brought up at the
Council, if only to be shot down by a wiser character. They did
discuss ideas which were just as unworkable (Toss the Ring into the
sea! Send it to Valinor! Give it to Tom Bombadil!)

Thoughts?

Stan Brown

2023-04-20 00:06:36 UTC