In message <news:sU7wg.47$***@news.uchicago.edu>
***@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) enriched us with:
<snip>
Regarding the nature and relative 'power' of Maiar (originating from
the question of Balrogs, and the relative 'power' of Gandalf the Grey
and the Balrog in Moria)
Post by Steuard JensenBut more broadly, I don't know that I would be so quick to assume
that any Maia could defeat any non-Ainu.
At least both Glorfindel and Ecthelion (both of Gondolin) prove
otherwise, and though we are not told so explicitly, I get the
impression that Fëanor killed some from the descriptions of his last
fight, when he was finally dealt a fatal blow by Gothmog (it would
somehow not seem 'right' if Fëanor should have fallen without killing
at least one of the Balrogs).
Post by Steuard JensenYes, the Maiar are in general "more powerful" than Incarnates like
Elves and Men,
[...]
I wouldn't even be too sure about that, though you are probably
right.
As I am coming to think of it, I believe that there were a large
number of rather weak discarnate spirits in Arda. Whether these were
Maiar or not would exclusively depend on whether they existed prior
to Eä or not.
The Maiar that we hear about in particular, Sauron, Olórin, Melian,
Eonwë, Ossë, Uinen, Arien, Tilion and others are doubtlessly much
more powerful than any Incarnate, even Fëanor -- they may even have
approached the might of the Valar themselves (didn't Tolkien say as
much somewhere?), but for the broad masses of the Maiar, the picture,
I think, could very well be different.
That is not to say that Maiar, on the average, were less 'powerful'
(insofar as 'power' in Tolkien's Eä can be meaningfully described by
a scalar) than the mean Incarnate, but I think that sufficient
overlap existed that a very signficant fraction of Maiar were less
powerful than the most powerful of Incarnates -- and even of Men.
The point where I am very much in doubt is whether there were any
spirits (i.e. naturally discarnate beings) that were created for and
within Eä (and thus did not, as the Ainur, precede Time -- even if
that is an oxymoron <G>). The existence of such -- be that elemental
sprites, nature spirits or whatever (or them all), could explain many
of the mysteries, though not necessarily any better than simply
assuming that the Maiar as a group was much broader than what is
explicitly evidenced in Tolkien's writings).
As it is, I prefer to think of such 'spirits' as 'existing' in their
own right in Eä, but without actually coming to a decision regarding
their detailed nature and origin.
Post by Steuard JensenI'm generally hesitant to deduce too much from "who's more
powerful than whom".
It is, IMO, at best a simplification to regard power as a scalar in
Tolkien's writings, even though he does, at times, seem to do so
himself, I do get the feeling that he is rather looking at power, as
we might say, as 'projected' along a certain direction (e.g. as you
used the 'fist-fighting' ability of Tulkas), whereas a statement such
as Melkor being the most powerful of all Ainur seems rather to refer
to the 'volume integral' (sorry to invoke such mathematical language,
but it's the only language I have at my disposal to put words to
this). Overall I think of power as represented by some multi-
dimensional surface, not unlike the graphical representation of
directional antenna or atomic orbitals (only in far more than 3
dimensions). The overall power is best represented by the total
volume, but that rather ignores that the power that can be brought to
bear on any specific task is read along the direction representing
that particular purpose.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the
same level of thinking with which we created them.
- Albert Einstein