"When shall I see a sign?"

[Jerry Friedman]

I've been wondering about the scene where Gandalf shows Aragorn the new
White Tree and Aragorn takes it as a sign that Arwen will marry him.
First, why does he connect these two events, even before he sees the
sapling? The previous White Tree died 400 years before the last king
of Gondor did.

Second, why doesn't Aragorn use the palantír to see whether Arwen
leaves Rivendell? He tells the hobbits in "Many Partings" that he
intends to watch them. Is Elrond immune, the way Gandalf is hidden from
Galadriel? Or does Aragorn see it as an invasion of privacy? Or is
waiting in suspense good for his soul?

By the way, I like the chronology in the main text ("The Steward and
the King") better than that in the Tale of Years. In the text, Aragorn
gets his sign sometime in May, not too long after his coronation
(because the tree is laden with blossom "when the month of June entered
in"). In the Tale of Years, he doesn't get the sign till June 25. It
seems cruel for Elrond to make him wait that long. Even Éomer could
have gotten word to him before June 25.

[No One In Particular]

Post by Jerry Friedman
I've been wondering about the scene where Gandalf shows Aragorn the new
White Tree and Aragorn takes it as a sign that Arwen will marry him.
First, why does he connect these two events, even before he sees the
sapling? The previous White Tree died 400 years before the last king
of Gondor did.
Second, why doesn't Aragorn use the palantír to see whether Arwen
leaves Rivendell? He tells the hobbits in "Many Partings" that he
intends to watch them. Is Elrond immune, the way Gandalf is hidden from
Galadriel? Or does Aragorn see it as an invasion of privacy? Or is
waiting in suspense good for his soul?

Because the Line of Elendil and the Line of the White Tree are
inextricable linked. When the Kingship shows signs of being renewed,
the sapling sprouts. It wouldn't have done that for any other reason.

The palantír-maybe he was too busy reorganizing his new realm to check?
He had a lot going on in the wake of the Fall of Sauron. Or perhaps
he was not yet skilled enough to pick out a particular person or party
traveling in all of wilderland yet. He hadn't had it very long.

Brian

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by No One In Particular

Post by Jerry Friedman
I've been wondering about the scene where Gandalf shows Aragorn the new
White Tree and Aragorn takes it as a sign that Arwen will marry him.
First, why does he connect these two events, even before he sees the
sapling? The previous White Tree died 400 years before the last king
of Gondor did.
Second, why doesn't Aragorn use the palantír to see whether Arwen
leaves Rivendell? He tells the hobbits in "Many Partings" that he
intends to watch them. Is Elrond immune, the way Gandalf is hidden from
Galadriel? Or does Aragorn see it as an invasion of privacy? Or is
waiting in suspense good for his soul?

Because the Line of Elendil and the Line of the White Tree are
inextricable linked. When the Kingship shows signs of being renewed,
the sapling sprouts. It wouldn't have done that for any other reason.

That's why it happens, we can assume, but how does Aragorn know it's
going to happen? Lots of things in Middle-earth don't get replaced.
For instance, the Two Trees weren't.

Post by No One In Particular
The palantír-maybe he was too busy reorganizing his new realm to check?
He had a lot going on in the wake of the Fall of Sauron.

He does seem to be concerned, though.

Post by No One In Particular
Or perhaps
he was not yet skilled enough to pick out a particular person or party
traveling in all of wilderland yet. He hadn't had it very long.

If I were him, I'd be watching Rivendell and nearby areas for signs of a
large groups of elves leaving.

I should have thought, though, that Elrond wouldn't have wanted Sauron
to watch him with the Ithil stone (particularly at the Council of
Elrond), so he must have had some way to hide.

[Steve Morrison]

Post by Jerry Friedman
I should have thought, though, that Elrond wouldn't have wanted Sauron
to watch him with the Ithil stone (particularly at the Council of
Elrond), so he must have had some way to hide.

The essay on the palantíri does say that it was possible to “shroud”
a location so it could not be observed by palantir.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Steve Morrison

Post by Jerry Friedman
I should have thought, though, that Elrond wouldn't have wanted Sauron
to watch him with the Ithil stone (particularly at the Council of
Elrond), so he must have had some way to hide.

The essay on the palantíri does say that it was possible to “shroud”
a location so it could not be observed by palantir.

Ah, that makes sense. So if Aragorn did try to use it, maybe Elrond
hadn't unshrouded Rivendell after Sauron fell--because the unshrouding
took longer, or he forgot, or he was too busy, or he wanted to keep
Aragorn in suspense.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by No One In Particular
Because the Line of Elendil and the Line of the White Tree are
inextricable linked. When the Kingship shows signs of being renewed,
the sapling sprouts. It wouldn't have done that for any other reason.

That's why it happens, we can assume, but how does Aragorn know it's
going to happen? Lots of things in Middle-earth don't get replaced.
For instance, the Two Trees weren't.

They weren't in Middle-earth. Maybe you're thinking of the two lamps?
IIRC (I'm too lazy to check), Yavanna told Fëanor that just as he
could only make Silmarils once, she could only make those magic trees
once.

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by No One In Particular
The palantír-maybe he was too busy reorganizing his new realm to check?
He had a lot going on in the wake of the Fall of Sauron.

And I think this was another instance of Tolkien showing us something
that _looked_ like chance but was actually a "leading" by a Vala.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by No One In Particular
Because the Line of Elendil and the Line of the White Tree are
inextricable linked. When the Kingship shows signs of being renewed,
the sapling sprouts. It wouldn't have done that for any other reason.

That's why it happens, we can assume, but how does Aragorn know it's
going to happen? Lots of things in Middle-earth don't get replaced.
For instance, the Two Trees weren't.

They weren't in Middle-earth. Maybe you're thinking of the two lamps?

...

No, I was using "Middle-earth" inexactly. Oops.

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by No One In Particular
The palantír-maybe he was too busy reorganizing his new realm to check?
He had a lot going on in the wake of the Fall of Sauron.

And I think this was another instance of Tolkien showing us something
that _looked_ like chance but was actually a "leading" by a Vala.

Sorry, what does your "this" refer to?

[Stan Brown]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Stan Brown

Post by No One In Particular
Because the Line of Elendil and the Line of the White Tree are
inextricable linked. When the Kingship shows signs of being renewed,
the sapling sprouts. It wouldn't have done that for any other reason.

...

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Stan Brown
And I think this was another instance of Tolkien showing us something
that _looked_ like chance but was actually a "leading" by a Vala.

Sorry, what does your "this" refer to?

The finding of the shoot of the White Tree.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Stan Brown

Post by No One In Particular
Because the Line of Elendil and the Line of the White Tree are
inextricable linked. When the Kingship shows signs of being renewed,
the sapling sprouts. It wouldn't have done that for any other reason.

...

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Stan Brown
And I think this was another instance of Tolkien showing us something
that _looked_ like chance but was actually a "leading" by a Vala.

Sorry, what does your "this" refer to?

The finding of the shoot of the White Tree.

Thanks. It does seem likely that Gandalf didn't just wander around
looking for it, but it would be hard to tell how much he used his own
powers and how much he was led.

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by No One In Particular
Because the Line of Elendil and the Line of the White Tree are
inextricable linked. When the Kingship shows signs of being renewed,
the sapling sprouts. It wouldn't have done that for any other reason.

That's why it happens, we can assume, but how does Aragorn know it's
going to happen? Lots of things in Middle-earth don't get replaced.
For instance, the Two Trees weren't.

Gandalf led Aragorn to the tree. Maybe he knew of it due to his
enhanced angelic powers a Gandalf the White. Perhaps he was given a
vision by the Valar. I don't think Aragorn knew he would find it.

I always laugh at this passage when I read it. Gandalf leads Aragorn up
to the heights of Mindolluin, tells Aragorn to turn around where he
sees the White Tree, then Aragorn exclaims, "I have found it!". I can
just see Gandalf clearing his throat and saying, "Uh, *you* found it?"
:-)

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by No One In Particular
Because the Line of Elendil and the Line of the White Tree are
inextricable linked. When the Kingship shows signs of being renewed,
the sapling sprouts. It wouldn't have done that for any other reason.

That's why it happens, we can assume, but how does Aragorn know it's
going to happen? Lots of things in Middle-earth don't get replaced.
For instance, the Two Trees weren't.

Gandalf led Aragorn to the tree. Maybe he knew of it due to his
enhanced angelic powers a Gandalf the White. Perhaps he was given a
vision by the Valar.

I assume Gandalf found it earlier that day while he was missing from the
city. Probably there was something supernatural about it. That would
be a lot of territory to search for a sapling. And it was given to him
to see many things far off.

Post by Bill O'Meally
I don't think Aragorn knew he would find it.

I left a bit out. What he seems to have known is that if Arwen married
him, a new White Tree would the sign that told him she was going to.

Post by Bill O'Meally
I always laugh at this passage when I read it. Gandalf leads Aragorn up
to the heights of Mindolluin, tells Aragorn to turn around where he
sees the White Tree, then Aragorn exclaims, "I have found it!". I can
just see Gandalf clearing his throat and saying, "Uh, *you* found it?"
:-)

A definite smile-provoker.

[James Mark Constantino]

Post by Jerry Friedman
I've been wondering about the scene where Gandalf shows Aragorn the new
White Tree and Aragorn takes it as a sign that Arwen will marry him.
First, why does he connect these two events, even before he sees the
sapling? The previous White Tree died 400 years before the last king
of Gondor did.
Second, why doesn't Aragorn use the palantír to see whether Arwen
leaves Rivendell? He tells the hobbits in "Many Partings" that he
intends to watch them. Is Elrond immune, the way Gandalf is hidden from
Galadriel? Or does Aragorn see it as an invasion of privacy? Or is
waiting in suspense good for his soul?
By the way, I like the chronology in the main text ("The Steward and
the King") better than that in the Tale of Years. In the text, Aragorn
gets his sign sometime in May, not too long after his coronation
(because the tree is laden with blossom "when the month of June entered
in"). In the Tale of Years, he doesn't get the sign till June 25. It
seems cruel for Elrond to make him wait that long. Even Éomer could
have gotten word to him before June 25.
--
Jerry Friedman
"No Trump" bridge-themed political shirts: cafepress.com/jerrysdesigns
Bumper stickers ditto: cafepress/jerrysstickers

family trees are important, regardless of their COLOR. the tree of gondor withered and died portending the end of the family line. a new tree in gondor brought by elessar portends a wedding and children to follow in the royal line. pretty simple, no?

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by James Mark Constantino

Post by Jerry Friedman
I've been wondering about the scene where Gandalf shows Aragorn the new
White Tree and Aragorn takes it as a sign that Arwen will marry him.
First, why does he connect these two events, even before he sees the
sapling? The previous White Tree died 400 years before the last king
of Gondor did.
Second, why doesn't Aragorn use the palantír to see whether Arwen
leaves Rivendell? He tells the hobbits in "Many Partings" that he
intends to watch them. Is Elrond immune, the way Gandalf is hidden from
Galadriel? Or does Aragorn see it as an invasion of privacy? Or is
waiting in suspense good for his soul?
By the way, I like the chronology in the main text ("The Steward and
the King") better than that in the Tale of Years. In the text, Aragorn
gets his sign sometime in May, not too long after his coronation
(because the tree is laden with blossom "when the month of June entered
in"). In the Tale of Years, he doesn't get the sign till June 25. It
seems cruel for Elrond to make him wait that long. Even Éomer could
have gotten word to him before June 25.
--
Jerry Friedman
"No Trump" bridge-themed political shirts: cafepress.com/jerrysdesigns
Bumper stickers ditto: cafepress/jerrysstickers

family trees are important, regardless of their COLOR. the tree of gondor withered and died portending the end of the family line.

My mistake. It was the next earlier tree that died 400 years before the
last king. The tree that's left withered in the courtyard died 800
years after Earnur.

Post by James Mark Constantino
a new tree in gondor brought by elessar portends a wedding and children to follow in the royal line. pretty simple, no?

[Paul S. Person]

On Mon, 11 Apr 2016 21:09:22 -0600, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman
I've been wondering about the scene where Gandalf shows Aragorn the new
White Tree and Aragorn takes it as a sign that Arwen will marry him.
First, why does he connect these two events, even before he sees the
sapling? The previous White Tree died 400 years before the last king
of Gondor did.

Part of the "bride-price" for Arwen involved becoming King. This I
recall pretty clearly.

Less clear is whether restoring the White Tree was also part of the
deal.

Defeating Sauron, of course, was the main requirement.

[Julian Bradfield]

Post by Paul S. Person
Part of the "bride-price" for Arwen involved becoming King. This I
recall pretty clearly.

King of both Arnor and Gondor, even.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Paul S. Person
Part of the "bride-price" for Arwen involved becoming King. This I
recall pretty clearly.

King of both Arnor and Gondor, even.

True. But all of a sudden, it strikes me as a rather arrogant demand
-- not loving care for his daughter, but almost a desire to be the
power behind the throne. Maybe it's the echoes of Thingol selling
_his_ daughter to a mortal for a Silmaril.

Please tell me I'm wrong about Elrond, and he was just speaking n
that formal way to encourage Aragorn to pursue Aragorn's own destiny.

[Paul S. Person]

On Thu, 21 Apr 2016 06:26:05 -0400, Stan Brown

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Paul S. Person
Part of the "bride-price" for Arwen involved becoming King. This I
recall pretty clearly.

King of both Arnor and Gondor, even.

True. But all of a sudden, it strikes me as a rather arrogant demand
-- not loving care for his daughter, but almost a desire to be the
power behind the throne. Maybe it's the echoes of Thingol selling
_his_ daughter to a mortal for a Silmaril.
Please tell me I'm wrong about Elrond, and he was just speaking n
that formal way to encourage Aragorn to pursue Aragorn's own destiny.

Arwen Evenstar was Luthien Reborn.

The Elves had already lost Luthien.

No price was too high for Arwen.

And, besides, Elrond had Elvish tradition to uphold: allow a Man to
marry your daughter only if he does something really really unlikely.

But I don't think Elrond wanted to be the power behind the throne --
he knew darn well that the Age of Man was dawning and that he would
soon (as Elves reckon time) be beyond the Sea.

[John W Kennedy]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Paul S. Person
Part of the "bride-price" for Arwen involved becoming King. This I
recall pretty clearly.

King of both Arnor and Gondor, even.

True. But all of a sudden, it strikes me as a rather arrogant demand
-- not loving care for his daughter, but almost a desire to be the
power behind the throne. Maybe it's the echoes of Thingol selling
_his_ daughter to a mortal for a Silmaril.

In the "Silmarillion", Thingol plainly says that he does not expect
Beren to succeed.

Post by Stan Brown
Please tell me I'm wrong about Elrond, and he was just speaking n
that formal way to encourage Aragorn to pursue Aragorn's own destiny.

Elrond's words in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" are plain. He knows
(and so do Arwen and Aragorn) that if they marry, Arwen will eventually
die. Elrond will leave Middle-Earth soon (as he in fact does) and has
no political ambitions in the Kingdom he will barely have time to see.
But he does not wish to have his daughter sacrifice her life unless it
means something, and that something must be the defeat of Sauron.

[Michael Ikeda]

Post by John W Kennedy

On Wed, 20 Apr 2016 16:52:39 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield

On 2016-04-20, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S. Person
Part of the "bride-price" for Arwen involved becoming King.
This I recall pretty clearly.

King of both Arnor and Gondor, even.

True. But all of a sudden, it strikes me as a rather arrogant
demand -- not loving care for his daughter, but almost a desire
to be the power behind the throne. Maybe it's the echoes of
Thingol selling _his_ daughter to a mortal for a Silmaril.

In the "Silmarillion", Thingol plainly says that he does not
expect Beren to succeed.

Please tell me I'm wrong about Elrond, and he was just speaking
n that formal way to encourage Aragorn to pursue Aragorn's own
destiny.

Elrond's words in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" are plain. He
knows (and so do Arwen and Aragorn) that if they marry, Arwen
will eventually die. Elrond will leave Middle-Earth soon (as he
in fact does) and has no political ambitions in the Kingdom he
will barely have time to see. But he does not wish to have his
daughter sacrifice her life unless it means something, and that
something must be the defeat of Sauron.

Although I think that Elrond did at least strongly suspect that the
requirement would eventually be met by Aragorn.

[John W Kennedy]

Post by Michael Ikeda

Post by John W Kennedy

On Wed, 20 Apr 2016 16:52:39 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield

On 2016-04-20, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S. Person
Part of the "bride-price" for Arwen involved becoming King.
This I recall pretty clearly.

King of both Arnor and Gondor, even.

True. But all of a sudden, it strikes me as a rather arrogant
demand -- not loving care for his daughter, but almost a desire
to be the power behind the throne. Maybe it's the echoes of
Thingol selling _his_ daughter to a mortal for a Silmaril.

In the "Silmarillion", Thingol plainly says that he does not
expect Beren to succeed.

Please tell me I'm wrong about Elrond, and he was just speaking
n that formal way to encourage Aragorn to pursue Aragorn's own
destiny.

Elrond's words in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" are plain. He
knows (and so do Arwen and Aragorn) that if they marry, Arwen
will eventually die. Elrond will leave Middle-Earth soon (as he
in fact does) and has no political ambitions in the Kingdom he
will barely have time to see. But he does not wish to have his
daughter sacrifice her life unless it means something, and that
something must be the defeat of Sauron.

Although I think that Elrond did at least strongly suspect that the
requirement would eventually be met by Aragorn.

Yes. If for nothing else, he saw that the breaking of Dol Guldur would
eventually precipitate the Age-ending crisis.

[Taemon]

Well, I think it was a dick move and I don't understand why Arwen didn't
simply marry Aragorn when she wanted. Now they lost a lot of time which
was already limited.

[Stan Brown]

Post by John W Kennedy

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Paul S. Person
Part of the "bride-price" for Arwen involved becoming King. This I
recall pretty clearly.

King of both Arnor and Gondor, even.

True. But all of a sudden, it strikes me as a rather arrogant demand
-- not loving care for his daughter, but almost a desire to be the
power behind the throne. Maybe it's the echoes of Thingol selling
_his_ daughter to a mortal for a Silmaril.

In the "Silmarillion", Thingol plainly says that he does not expect
Beren to succeed.
Elrond's words in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" are plain. He knows
(and so do Arwen and Aragorn) that if they marry, Arwen will eventually
die. Elrond will leave Middle-Earth soon (as he in fact does) and has
no political ambitions in the Kingdom he will barely have time to see.
But he does not wish to have his daughter sacrifice her life unless it
means something, and that something must be the defeat of Sauron.

Thanks. Even the "good" Elves can sometimes make horrible mistakes,
even do evil. But you're right, that Elrond was no Thingol. And I had
forgotten about Thingol consciously sending Beren to his death.
Elrond was no Thingol in that regard.

(For some reason I find the Tale of A & A very hard to get through,
so I don't know it at all well. I'll have to really sit down and read
it.)

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by John W Kennedy

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Paul S. Person
Part of the "bride-price" for Arwen involved becoming King. This I
recall pretty clearly.

King of both Arnor and Gondor, even.

True. But all of a sudden, it strikes me as a rather arrogant demand
-- not loving care for his daughter, but almost a desire to be the
power behind the throne. Maybe it's the echoes of Thingol selling
_his_ daughter to a mortal for a Silmaril.

In the "Silmarillion", Thingol plainly says that he does not expect
Beren to succeed.
Elrond's words in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" are plain. He knows
(and so do Arwen and Aragorn) that if they marry, Arwen will eventually
die. Elrond will leave Middle-Earth soon (as he in fact does) and has
no political ambitions in the Kingdom he will barely have time to see.
But he does not wish to have his daughter sacrifice her life unless it
means something, and that something must be the defeat of Sauron.

Thanks. Even the "good" Elves can sometimes make horrible mistakes,
even do evil. But you're right, that Elrond was no Thingol. And I had
forgotten about Thingol consciously sending Beren to his death.
Elrond was no Thingol in that regard.
(For some reason I find the Tale of A & A very hard to get through,
so I don't know it at all well. I'll have to really sit down and read
it.)

You'll have to. You might notice, as I did belatedly, that after
Aragorn says to Arwen, "...the Twilight you must also renounce," the
narration says, "And she stood then as still as a white tree..."

By the way, isn't the procedure for Elrond's consent rather odd? I'd
have expected that Aragorn would go to Rivendell or send messengers to
formally ask Elrond for Arwen's hand and for the scepter of Annúminas.
Is there precedent in history or fiction for the groom just waiting for
the bride and her father to show up?

[Michael Ikeda]

Post by Jerry Friedman
By the way, isn't the procedure for Elrond's consent rather odd?
I'd have expected that Aragorn would go to Rivendell or send
messengers to formally ask Elrond for Arwen's hand and for the
scepter of Annúminas. Is there precedent in history or fiction
for the groom just waiting for the bride and her father to show
up?

Elrond and Arwen left Rivendell on the day of Aragorn's coronation,
so either some message was sent about the coronation or Elrond knew
about it by some other means.

Arguably, no other message was actually necessary since Elrond had
already given consent conditional on Aragorn becoming king of Arnor
and Gondor.

[Fred Smith]

Post by Michael Ikeda
Elrond and Arwen left Rivendell on the day of Aragorn's coronation,
so either some message was sent about the coronation or Elrond knew
about it by some other means.

Elrond's ring blue-screened and wouldn't reboot after the One went
into the fire. So he knew about Sauron's downfall and could guess
the rest.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Fred Smith

Post by Michael Ikeda
Elrond and Arwen left Rivendell on the day of Aragorn's coronation,
so either some message was sent about the coronation or Elrond knew
about it by some other means.

Elrond's ring blue-screened and wouldn't reboot after the One went
into the fire.

I thought its screen was already blue.

Post by Fred Smith
So he knew about Sauron's downfall and could guess
the rest.

I agree that he knew about the downfall. He'd have to guess that
Aragorn survived and that he was accepted as king--but of course
Elrond's wise. I suppose he could be sure that Aragorn still wanted to
marry Arwen.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Jerry Friedman
I agree that he knew about the downfall. He'd have to guess that
Aragorn survived and that he was accepted as king--but of course
Elrond's wise.

Don't forget Osanwë-kenta. The Wise could speak mind to mind, and I
don't think that was limited by distance. Gandalf could have given
him the glad news.

Then, there's always the Eagle Express too. Perhaps another eagle
went to Rivendell at the same time as the one we know about in Minas
Tirith.

[Steve Morrison]

Post by Stan Brown
Don't forget Osanwë-kenta. The Wise could speak mind to mind, and I
don't think that was limited by distance. Gandalf could have given him
the glad news.

Indeed, in Osanwë-kenta we are specifically told:

For distance in itself offers no impediment whatever to ósanwe.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Jerry Friedman
I agree that he knew about the downfall. He'd have to guess that
Aragorn survived and that he was accepted as king--but of course
Elrond's wise.

Don't forget Osanwë-kenta.

I didn't, as you can see from another post.

Post by Stan Brown
The Wise could speak mind to mind, and I
don't think that was limited by distance. Gandalf could have given
him the glad news.
Then, there's always the Eagle Express too. Perhaps another eagle
went to Rivendell at the same time as the one we know about in Minas
Tirith.

...

I did forget about that possibility. Again, if that's what happened,
it would have been nice of the eagles to give Aragorn the glad news.

[Wayne Brown]

Post by Fred Smith

Post by Michael Ikeda
Elrond and Arwen left Rivendell on the day of Aragorn's coronation,
so either some message was sent about the coronation or Elrond knew
about it by some other means.

Elrond's ring blue-screened and wouldn't reboot after the One went
into the fire. So he knew about Sauron's downfall and could guess
the rest.

Blue-screened? Never! It had a kernel panic. :-)

Of course Gandalf's ring probably got a Guru Meditation.

[Michael Ikeda]

Post by Fred Smith

Post by Michael Ikeda
Elrond and Arwen left Rivendell on the day of Aragorn's
coronation, so either some message was sent about the
coronation or Elrond knew about it by some other means.

Elrond's ring blue-screened and wouldn't reboot after the One
went into the fire. So he knew about Sauron's downfall and could
guess the rest.

Elrond knew about Sauron's downfall. But that alone would not tell
him the exact date of the coronation.

[Fred Smith]

Post by Michael Ikeda

Post by Fred Smith

Post by Michael Ikeda
Elrond and Arwen left Rivendell on the day of Aragorn's
coronation, so either some message was sent about the
coronation or Elrond knew about it by some other means.

Elrond's ring blue-screened and wouldn't reboot after the One
went into the fire. So he knew about Sauron's downfall and could
guess the rest.

Elrond knew about Sauron's downfall. But that alone would not tell
him the exact date of the coronation.

There wasn't going to be a coronation without him and his daughter
turning up. So the exact date is when Elrond felt like it, not
Aragorn.

[Fred Smith]

Post by Fred Smith

Post by Michael Ikeda

Post by Fred Smith

Post by Michael Ikeda
Elrond and Arwen left Rivendell on the day of Aragorn's
coronation, so either some message was sent about the
coronation or Elrond knew about it by some other means.

Elrond's ring blue-screened and wouldn't reboot after the One
went into the fire. So he knew about Sauron's downfall and could
guess the rest.

Elrond knew about Sauron's downfall. But that alone would not tell
him the exact date of the coronation.

There wasn't going to be a coronation without him and his daughter
turning up. So the exact date is when Elrond felt like it, not
Aragorn.

Just ignore this, was thinking of the marriage, not coronation...

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Michael Ikeda

Post by Fred Smith

Post by Michael Ikeda
Elrond and Arwen left Rivendell on the day of Aragorn's
coronation, so either some message was sent about the
coronation or Elrond knew about it by some other means.

Elrond's ring blue-screened and wouldn't reboot after the One
went into the fire. So he knew about Sauron's downfall and could
guess the rest.

Elrond knew about Sauron's downfall. But that alone would not tell
him the exact date of the coronation.

True, and it doesn't seem likely that they would have left Rivendell
on the day of the coronation by mere chance, if chance you call it.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Michael Ikeda

Post by Jerry Friedman
By the way, isn't the procedure for Elrond's consent rather odd?
I'd have expected that Aragorn would go to Rivendell or send
messengers to formally ask Elrond for Arwen's hand and for the
scepter of Annúminas. Is there precedent in history or fiction
for the groom just waiting for the bride and her father to show
up?

Elrond and Arwen left Rivendell on the day of Aragorn's coronation,
so either some message was sent about the coronation or Elrond knew
about it by some other means.

Yes. If Aragorn sent the message, the strange thing is that there
was no answer. If, say, Gandalf sent the message telepathically (since
he, Galadriel, and Elrond could converse telepathically when they were
together, probably in "Many Partings), then maybe he was cooperating with
Elrond in keeping the permission secret, like not telling the guests
what's for dinner--though it seems cruel to me in this case. And of
course maybe Elrond found out some other way.

Post by Michael Ikeda
Arguably, no other message was actually necessary since Elrond had
already given consent conditional on Aragorn becoming king of Arnor
and Gondor.

I think that's only arguable. If you take him literally, he didn't
promise anything. He said Aragorn's becoming king was a necessary
condition for the marriage, but he didn't say it was a sufficient one.
Also, till Aragorn sees the tree, he seems to feel considerable doubt
about whether Elrond has consented.

(Is there any possibility that Elrond could have said, "You're not the
king of Arnor, and I'm not giving you the scepter"? Or at least "You're
not the king of Arnor till I see a kingdom up here"?)

[Stan Brown]

Post by Jerry Friedman

[quoted text muted]
(For some reason I find the Tale of A & A very hard to get through,
so I don't know it at all well. I'll have to really sit down and read
it.)

You'll have to. You might notice, as I did belatedly, that after
Aragorn says to Arwen, "...the Twilight you must also renounce," the
narration says, "And she stood then as still as a white tree..."
By the way, isn't the procedure for Elrond's consent rather odd? I'd
have expected that Aragorn would go to Rivendell or send messengers to
formally ask Elrond for Arwen's hand and for the scepter of Annúminas.
Is there precedent in history or fiction for the groom just waiting for
the bride and her father to show up?

Everybody knew they were engaged, way back before the Council of
Elrond. Ans as you (or mayhap Mr. Kennedy) posted, years earlier
Elrond and Aragorn had had a conversation that made it clear Elrond
knew they intended to marry.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by John W Kennedy

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Paul S. Person
Part of the "bride-price" for Arwen involved becoming King. This I
recall pretty clearly.

King of both Arnor and Gondor, even.

True. But all of a sudden, it strikes me as a rather arrogant demand
-- not loving care for his daughter, but almost a desire to be the
power behind the throne. Maybe it's the echoes of Thingol selling
_his_ daughter to a mortal for a Silmaril.

In the "Silmarillion", Thingol plainly says that he does not expect
Beren to succeed.

Post by Stan Brown
Please tell me I'm wrong about Elrond, and he was just speaking n
that formal way to encourage Aragorn to pursue Aragorn's own destiny.

Elrond's words in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" are plain.

"My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear
to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been appointed
so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore,
though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undómiel shall not diminish her
life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less
than the King of both Gondor and Arnor."

Post by John W Kennedy
He knows
(and so do Arwen and Aragorn) that if they marry, Arwen will eventually
die. Elrond will leave Middle-Earth soon (as he in fact does) and has no
political ambitions in the Kingdom he will barely have time to see.

I agree with that.

Post by John W Kennedy
But
he does not wish to have his daughter sacrifice her life unless it means
something, and that something must be the defeat of Sauron.

But it doesn't mean the defeat of Sauron in any way that I can see. He
would still have been defeated if Arwen hadn't gone later to marry
Aragorn. The only way I can reconcile "for less cause" and "less than
the King" is that Elrond is letting her sacrifice her life with her
family to found the destined dynasty. (Which I hadn't noticed
before--I'd thought Elrond was insisting on a husband worthy of Arwen,
and I guess that may be part of it.)

[John W Kennedy]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by John W Kennedy

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Paul S. Person
Part of the "bride-price" for Arwen involved becoming King. This I
recall pretty clearly.

King of both Arnor and Gondor, even.

True. But all of a sudden, it strikes me as a rather arrogant demand
-- not loving care for his daughter, but almost a desire to be the
power behind the throne. Maybe it's the echoes of Thingol selling
_his_ daughter to a mortal for a Silmaril.

In the "Silmarillion", Thingol plainly says that he does not expect
Beren to succeed.

Post by Stan Brown
Please tell me I'm wrong about Elrond, and he was just speaking n
that formal way to encourage Aragorn to pursue Aragorn's own destiny.

Elrond's words in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" are plain.

"My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is
clear to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been
appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored.
Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undómiel shall not
diminish her life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride
of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor."

Post by John W Kennedy
He knows
(and so do Arwen and Aragorn) that if they marry, Arwen will eventually
die. Elrond will leave Middle-Earth soon (as he in fact does) and has no
political ambitions in the Kingdom he will barely have time to see.

I agree with that.

Post by John W Kennedy
But
he does not wish to have his daughter sacrifice her life unless it means
something, and that something must be the defeat of Sauron.

But it doesn't mean the defeat of Sauron in any way that I can see. He
would still have been defeated if Arwen hadn't gone later to marry
Aragorn. The only way I can reconcile "for less cause" and "less than
the King" is that Elrond is letting her sacrifice her life with her
family to found the destined dynasty. (Which I hadn't noticed
before--I'd thought Elrond was insisting on a husband worthy of Arwen,
and I guess that may be part of it.)

The restored Kingdom and the defeat of Sauron are, practically
speaking, one and the same.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by John W Kennedy

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Paul S. Person
Part of the "bride-price" for Arwen involved becoming King. This I
recall pretty clearly.

King of both Arnor and Gondor, even.

True. But all of a sudden, it strikes me as a rather arrogant demand
-- not loving care for his daughter, but almost a desire to be the
power behind the throne. Maybe it's the echoes of Thingol selling
_his_ daughter to a mortal for a Silmaril.

In the "Silmarillion", Thingol plainly says that he does not expect
Beren to succeed.

Post by Stan Brown
Please tell me I'm wrong about Elrond, and he was just speaking n
that formal way to encourage Aragorn to pursue Aragorn's own destiny.

Elrond's words in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" are plain.

"My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is
clear to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been
appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored.
Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undómiel shall not
diminish her life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride
of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor."

Post by John W Kennedy
He knows
(and so do Arwen and Aragorn) that if they marry, Arwen will eventually
die. Elrond will leave Middle-Earth soon (as he in fact does) and has no
political ambitions in the Kingdom he will barely have time to see.

I agree with that.

Post by John W Kennedy
But
he does not wish to have his daughter sacrifice her life unless it means
something, and that something must be the defeat of Sauron.

But it doesn't mean the defeat of Sauron in any way that I can see.
He would still have been defeated if Arwen hadn't gone later to marry
Aragorn. The only way I can reconcile "for less cause" and "less than
the King" is that Elrond is letting her sacrifice her life with her
family to found the destined dynasty. (Which I hadn't noticed
before--I'd thought Elrond was insisting on a husband worthy of Arwen,
and I guess that may be part of it.)

The restored Kingdom and the defeat of Sauron are, practically speaking,
one and the same.

But the establishment of a dynasty after Aragorn is different, and
that's where Arwen plays a part.

Elrond doesn't have to lose Arwen for Aragorn's kingship. He does have
to lose her for the restored kingship of Men to continue after Aragorn.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Jerry Friedman

[quoted text muted]

Post by Jerry Friedman
and I guess that may be part of it.)

The restored Kingdom and the defeat of Sauron are, practically speaking,
one and the same.

But the establishment of a dynasty after Aragorn is different, and
that's where Arwen plays a part.
Elrond doesn't have to lose Arwen for Aragorn's kingship. He does have
to lose her for the restored kingship of Men to continue after
Aragorn.

Heck! As someone remarked in alt.usage.english, I should have read
through the whole thread before posting what was essentially an
elaboration of what you said.

But ...

Can I just say how nice it is to see a real Tolkien discussion in
this group? I've missed that.

[Stan Brown]

Post by John W Kennedy
The restored Kingdom and the defeat of Sauron are, practically
speaking, one and the same.

I agree. But there's a third thing, and it's different: the
foundation of a dynasty. If Arwen had not chosen Aragorn and Men over
remaining as one of the Elves, he would never have married, or would
have married a mortal.

With no heir, his kingdom would break up when he died. But with an
heir whose mother was mortal, the element of "nobility" from Lúthien
would have been further diluted, and the heir would have been another
Denethor, or at best an Imrahil -- but _his_ heirs would have been
progressively worse. Númenor had gone through that already.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2016 21:20:30 -0600, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by John W Kennedy

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Paul S. Person
Part of the "bride-price" for Arwen involved becoming King. This I
recall pretty clearly.

King of both Arnor and Gondor, even.

True. But all of a sudden, it strikes me as a rather arrogant demand
-- not loving care for his daughter, but almost a desire to be the
power behind the throne. Maybe it's the echoes of Thingol selling
_his_ daughter to a mortal for a Silmaril.

In the "Silmarillion", Thingol plainly says that he does not expect
Beren to succeed.

Post by Stan Brown
Please tell me I'm wrong about Elrond, and he was just speaking n
that formal way to encourage Aragorn to pursue Aragorn's own destiny.

Elrond's words in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" are plain.

"My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear
to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been appointed
so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore,
though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undómiel shall not diminish her
life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less
than the King of both Gondor and Arnor."

Post by John W Kennedy
He knows
(and so do Arwen and Aragorn) that if they marry, Arwen will eventually
die. Elrond will leave Middle-Earth soon (as he in fact does) and has no
political ambitions in the Kingdom he will barely have time to see.

I agree with that.

Post by John W Kennedy
But
he does not wish to have his daughter sacrifice her life unless it means
something, and that something must be the defeat of Sauron.

But it doesn't mean the defeat of Sauron in any way that I can see. He
would still have been defeated if Arwen hadn't gone later to marry
Aragorn. The only way I can reconcile "for less cause" and "less than
the King" is that Elrond is letting her sacrifice her life with her
family to found the destined dynasty. (Which I hadn't noticed
before--I'd thought Elrond was insisting on a husband worthy of Arwen,
and I guess that may be part of it.)

Perhaps he believes that the dynasty thus founded will be an obstacle
to the recrudescence of Sauron's power.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 23 Apr 2016 21:20:30 -0600, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by John W Kennedy

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Paul S. Person
Part of the "bride-price" for Arwen involved becoming King. This I
recall pretty clearly.

King of both Arnor and Gondor, even.

True. But all of a sudden, it strikes me as a rather arrogant demand
-- not loving care for his daughter, but almost a desire to be the
power behind the throne. Maybe it's the echoes of Thingol selling
_his_ daughter to a mortal for a Silmaril.

In the "Silmarillion", Thingol plainly says that he does not expect
Beren to succeed.

Post by Stan Brown
Please tell me I'm wrong about Elrond, and he was just speaking n
that formal way to encourage Aragorn to pursue Aragorn's own destiny.

Elrond's words in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" are plain.

"My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear
to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been appointed
so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore,
though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undómiel shall not diminish her
life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less
than the King of both Gondor and Arnor."

Post by John W Kennedy
He knows
(and so do Arwen and Aragorn) that if they marry, Arwen will eventually
die. Elrond will leave Middle-Earth soon (as he in fact does) and has no
political ambitions in the Kingdom he will barely have time to see.

I agree with that.

Post by John W Kennedy
But
he does not wish to have his daughter sacrifice her life unless it means
something, and that something must be the defeat of Sauron.

But it doesn't mean the defeat of Sauron in any way that I can see. He
would still have been defeated if Arwen hadn't gone later to marry
Aragorn. The only way I can reconcile "for less cause" and "less than
the King" is that Elrond is letting her sacrifice her life with her
family to found the destined dynasty. (Which I hadn't noticed
before--I'd thought Elrond was insisting on a husband worthy of Arwen,
and I guess that may be part of it.)

Perhaps he believes that the dynasty thus founded will be an obstacle
to the recrudescence of Sauron's power.

I hadn't thought of that, but I see that it could be another reason that
he wants Aragorn to have heirs "of his body", beyond the idea that they
would be the rightful kings and that's a good thing.

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 25 Apr 2016 07:55:55 -0600, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 23 Apr 2016 21:20:30 -0600, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by John W Kennedy
But
he does not wish to have his daughter sacrifice her life unless it means
something, and that something must be the defeat of Sauron.

But it doesn't mean the defeat of Sauron in any way that I can see. He
would still have been defeated if Arwen hadn't gone later to marry
Aragorn. The only way I can reconcile "for less cause" and "less than
the King" is that Elrond is letting her sacrifice her life with her
family to found the destined dynasty. (Which I hadn't noticed
before--I'd thought Elrond was insisting on a husband worthy of Arwen,
and I guess that may be part of it.)

Perhaps he believes that the dynasty thus founded will be an obstacle
to the recrudescence of Sauron's power.

I hadn't thought of that, but I see that it could be another reason that
he wants Aragorn to have heirs "of his body", beyond the idea that they
would be the rightful kings and that's a good thing.

Sauron had suffered defeats and setbacks before, and yet had grown
strong again. One of the reasons for that in this case was the
weakness of Gondor.

As I see it, Elrond believes that the dynasty founded by his daughter
and Aragorn will be not only strong but good (a rare enough
combination anywhere), and he sees that as a worthy cause. The
corollary is that if he had not believed that, he would not have
approved of the marriage.

[No One In Particular]

Everyone is ignoring the obvious fact of what Arwen wanted herself.
Elrond refused to allow her to marry anyone less than the King of the
United Realm; but Arwen loved Estel, not King Elessar Telcontar. Elrond
would also want her to be happy-but he placed a higher value on that
happiness.

Consider also; what if Sauron falls, but Aragorn is killed sometime
during the struggle? One in the win column for the west, but no
enduring dynasty. If Elrond had allowed them to marry earlier, her
grace would now be gone to no purpose. You could look at it as Elrond
hedging his bets.

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by No One In Particular
Everyone is ignoring the obvious fact of what Arwen wanted herself.
Elrond refused to allow her to marry anyone less than the King of the
United Realm; but Arwen loved Estel, not King Elessar Telcontar.
Elrond would also want her to be happy-but he placed a higher value on
that happiness.
Consider also; what if Sauron falls, but Aragorn is killed sometime
during the struggle? One in the win column for the west, but no
enduring dynasty. If Elrond had allowed them to marry earlier, her
grace would now be gone to no purpose. You could look at it as Elrond
hedging his bets.

Unless Eldarion was born, or at least conceived, before Aragorn's death..

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by No One In Particular
Everyone is ignoring the obvious fact of what Arwen wanted herself.
Elrond refused to allow her to marry anyone less than the King of the
United Realm; but Arwen loved Estel, not King Elessar Telcontar.
Elrond would also want her to be happy-but he placed a higher value on
that happiness.
Consider also; what if Sauron falls, but Aragorn is killed sometime
during the struggle? One in the win column for the west, but no
enduring dynasty. If Elrond had allowed them to marry earlier, her
grace would now be gone to no purpose. You could look at it as Elrond
hedging his bets.

Unless Eldarion was born, or at least conceived, before Aragorn's death..

He'd also have to be accepted by Gondor, starting with Faramir.

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Bill O'Meally
Unless Eldarion was born, or at least conceived, before Aragorn's death..

He'd also have to be accepted by Gondor, starting with Faramir.

He'd have as good a claim as Aragorn, if not better having the
granddaughter of Earendil as his mother.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Bill O'Meally
Unless Eldarion was born, or at least conceived, before Aragorn's death..

He'd also have to be accepted by Gondor, starting with Faramir.

He'd have as good a claim as Aragorn, if not better having the
granddaughter of Earendil as his mother.

But would Faramir have recognized him as king the second he opened his
eyes? Aragorn doesn't become king just because of his ancestry, because
Arvedui didn't. He becomes king because he saved Minas Tirith and has
the hands of a healer and somehow has "king" written all over him (at
times, for the perceptive). As Elrond knows, Aragorn is a unique
throwback. Maybe he thinks that because of Arwen, Aragorn's and
Arwen's son would be equally impressive or more, but maybe he doesn't.

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Bill O'Meally
He'd have as good a claim as Aragorn, if not better having the
granddaughter of Earendil as his mother.

But would Faramir have recognized him as king the second he opened his
eyes? Aragorn doesn't become king just because of his ancestry, because
Arvedui didn't. He becomes king because he saved Minas Tirith and has
the hands of a healer and somehow has "king" written all over him (at
times, for the perceptive). As Elrond knows, Aragorn is a unique
throwback. Maybe he thinks that because of Arwen, Aragorn's and
Arwen's son would be equally impressive or more, but maybe he doesn't.

I think Faramir, more so than either Denethor or Boromir (who might
have even been inclined to declare himself king had he lived) would
have likely recognized Eldarion's claim (or Arwen's claim on his
behalf) even without Aragorn's having cured him from the Black Breath.
Recall Faramir's conversation with Frodo about how he has no interest
in power in and of itself, but rather only in the interest (I'm
paraphrasing, obviously) of a strong Gondor. He said something about
how he'd rather see the king returned and the White Tree in bloom than
be the ruler himself. Denethor somehow knows Faramir's mind and accuses
him of planning on replacing him with an upstart, so already we get the
feeling that he has already accepted Aragorn's claim.

All this after Denethor's comment to a young Boromir that (again, I
paraphrase) that a thousand generations would not be enough for the
Stewards to assume the kingship of Gondor.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Bill O'Meally
Recall Faramir's conversation with Frodo about how he has no interest
in power in and of itself, but rather only in the interest (I'm
paraphrasing, obviously) of a strong Gondor.

Not a strong Gondor, but a happy Gondor.

"'For myself,' said Faramir, 'I would see the White Tree in flower
again in the courts of the kings, and the Silver Crown return, and
Minas Tirith in peace: Minas Anor again as of old, full of light,
high and fair, beautiful as a queen among other queens: not a
mistress of many slaves, nay, not even a kind mistress of willing
slaves. War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer
who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its
sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his
glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of
Númenor; and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry,
her beauty, and her present wisdom. Not feared, save as men may fear
the dignity of a man, old and wise."

I think it's an important distinction, and that has been lost sight
of in today's real;\ world.

[Stan Brown]

Post by No One In Particular
Everyone is ignoring the obvious fact of what Arwen wanted herself.

She was only a woman -- what she wanted didn't count when weighed
against her destiny.

Yes, I'm overstating, but look at how Tolkien treated Éowyn. He
really did seem to believe that a woman needed a man to make her a
complete human being. And look at Galadriel, marrying that doofus
when she could perfectly well have ruled a realm on her own.

[No One In Particular]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by No One In Particular
Everyone is ignoring the obvious fact of what Arwen wanted herself.

She was only a woman -- what she wanted didn't count when weighed
against her destiny.
Yes, I'm overstating, but look at how Tolkien treated Éowyn. He
really did seem to believe that a woman needed a man to make her a
complete human being. And look at Galadriel, marrying that doofus
when she could perfectly well have ruled a realm on her own.

I agree-if Elrond had said "No" then she would have had no recourse.
But he wanted her to be happy, and for whatever insane reason she had
chosen this mortal man. For her to be happy, Elrond would allow the
marriage-but only under certain conditions.

[Thomas Koenig]

Post by Stan Brown
And look at Galadriel, marrying that doofus
when she could perfectly well have ruled a realm on her own.

Well, she did.

She paid lip service to her husband's authority, but nobody doubted
that she was in charge.

[Paul S. Person]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:52:19 -0400, Stan Brown

Post by Stan Brown

Post by No One In Particular
Everyone is ignoring the obvious fact of what Arwen wanted herself.

She was only a woman -- what she wanted didn't count when weighed
against her destiny.
Yes, I'm overstating, but look at how Tolkien treated Éowyn. He
really did seem to believe that a woman needed a man to make her a
complete human being. And look at Galadriel, marrying that doofus
when she could perfectly well have ruled a realm on her own.

I don't think you're overstating at all.

Yes, JRRT himself is recent enough that this his attitude was probably
less harsh.

But the traditions he was drawing on were much much older and much
much harsher.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by No One In Particular
Everyone is ignoring the obvious fact of what Arwen wanted herself.

...

In fact, something we have no idea of, as far as I know, is how either
Aragorn or Arwen felt about Elrond's condition on the marriage.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by No One In Particular
Everyone is ignoring the obvious fact of what Arwen wanted herself.

...
In fact, something we have no idea of, as far as I know, is how either
Aragorn or Arwen felt about Elrond's condition on the marriage.

No direct knowledge, I agree. But I think we can make reasonable
inferences.

Elrond was Aragorn's foster father, and from all indications that we
see he wasn't treated differently from Elrond's natural sons, as far
as I can recall.

If I had been Aragorn, I'd have completely lacked the courage to
fight Sauron or much of anything else, and would have spent my time
skulking about in the northern forests. We (at least I) tend to
forget how really hard his life was, not just physically
uncomfortable, with only brief time in the comfort of his childhood
home, but often facing deadly dangers. My guess is that that more
than occupied his thoughts, with no attention left to conditions or
indeed to an eventual marriage.

I wonder to what extent he actually believed that he would win.
Surely he knew how desperate was the plan concocted at the Council of
Elrond. Did e expect to come through alive, especially after
Gandalf's death when he thought he'd have to take Frodo to Mordor?

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Stan Brown
I wonder to what extent he actually believed that he would win.
Surely he knew how desperate was the plan concocted at the Council of
Elrond. Did e expect to come through alive, especially after
Gandalf's death when he thought he'd have to take Frodo to Mordor?

I think that the fact that he did survive dified the odds, even from the start.

With that in mind, knowing the odds were greatly against the Quest
being successful and the liklihood of Aragorn being counted among the
dead, wouldn't Elrond have been more wise to allow the two to marry
earlier on so as to increase the chances of the continuance of the line
of Luthien?

[Stan Brown]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Stan Brown
I wonder to what extent he actually believed that he would win.
Surely he knew how desperate was the plan concocted at the Council of
Elrond. Did e expect to come through alive, especially after
Gandalf's death when he thought he'd have to take Frodo to Mordor?

I think that the fact that he did survive dified the odds, even from the start.
With that in mind, knowing the odds were greatly against the Quest
being successful and the liklihood of Aragorn being counted among the
dead, wouldn't Elrond have been more wise to allow the two to marry
earlier on so as to increase the chances of the continuance of the line
of Luthien?

The line of Lúthien shall never fail, it was prophesied. But that is
no guarantee to Aragorn. For one thing, there were other Dúnedain
descended from the royal house. But also, Lúthien's line was alive
and well in Elrond and his two sons. (I don't know whether descent
through a female such as Arwen would count as the "line of Lúthien"
in Tolkien's world.)

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Stan Brown
The line of Lúthien shall never fail, it was prophesied. But that is
no guarantee to Aragorn. For one thing, there were other Dúnedain
descended from the royal house. But also, Lúthien's line was alive
and well in Elrond and his two sons. (I don't know whether descent
through a female such as Arwen would count as the "line of Lúthien"
in Tolkien's world.)

OK, point taken. Maybe I should have said the line of Elendil, which
would have ended with Aragorn's death. Certainly Elrond would not want
to see that happen

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Stan Brown
I wonder to what extent he actually believed that he would win.
Surely he knew how desperate was the plan concocted at the Council of
Elrond. Did e expect to come through alive, especially after
Gandalf's death when he thought he'd have to take Frodo to Mordor?

I think that the fact that he did survive dified the odds, even from the start.
With that in mind, knowing the odds were greatly against the Quest
being successful and the liklihood of Aragorn being counted among the
dead, wouldn't Elrond have been more wise to allow the two to marry
earlier on so as to increase the chances of the continuance of the line
of Luthien?

The line of Lúthien shall never fail, it was prophesied. But that is
no guarantee to Aragorn. For one thing, there were other Dúnedain
descended from the royal house.

Were there? When we discussed this in 2012, we couldn't come up with any.

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rec.arts.books.tolkien/udIbBwTmPoY/discussion

Post by Stan Brown
But also, Lúthien's line was alive
and well in Elrond and his two sons. (I don't know whether descent
through a female such as Arwen would count as the "line of Lúthien"
in Tolkien's world.)

Aragorn was descended from Lúthien by way of Elwing and Silmariën, both
female. It's possible that Silmariën's husband was descended from Elros
in an all-male line (involving at least one younger son), though.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by No One In Particular
Everyone is ignoring the obvious fact of what Arwen wanted herself.

...
In fact, something we have no idea of, as far as I know, is how either
Aragorn or Arwen felt about Elrond's condition on the marriage.

No direct knowledge, I agree. But I think we can make reasonable
inferences.
Elrond was Aragorn's foster father, and from all indications that we
see he wasn't treated differently from Elrond's natural sons, as far
as I can recall.
If I had been Aragorn, I'd have completely lacked the courage to
fight Sauron or much of anything else, and would have spent my time
skulking about in the northern forests. We (at least I) tend to
forget how really hard his life was, not just physically
uncomfortable, with only brief time in the comfort of his childhood
home, but often facing deadly dangers. My guess is that that more
than occupied his thoughts, with no attention left to conditions or
indeed to an eventual marriage.

I think he has lots of time to think about Arwen and his plans. Even
from Bree to Rivendell in FotR, he has days on end with nothing
happening. That must have happened to him more when he wasn't being
sought by Ringwraiths. And during the long, lonely nights that he's had
for years, where he can't do anything from sunset to sunrise except what
he can do by firelight--I'll he thought of her a lot.

During LotR, he's thinking of his marriage again. As Paul Kocher, who I
occasionally mention, pointed out, his best chance to become king of
Gondor is to go to Minas Tirith. That's what gives him such difficulty
with his choice after the Fellowship leaves Lórien. In the first
chapter of TT, he says, "Boromir has laid it on me to go to Minas
Tirith, and my heart desires it..." That is, he desires Arwen. I don't
know why Tolkien decided never to make that explicit.

Post by Stan Brown
I wonder to what extent he actually believed that he would win.
Surely he knew how desperate was the plan concocted at the Council of
Elrond. Did e expect to come through alive, especially after
Gandalf's death when he thought he'd have to take Frodo to Mordor?

Such expectations might matter to you and me, but not to heroes destined
to be king. They know what they have to do and they intend to do it or
die. And in Aragorn's world there are powers who, if you listen to the
voice of your heart and do the right thing, may help.