Christopher Kreuzer
2004-01-12 02:08:09 UTC
SPOILERS for the Rankin Bass 'The Return of the King' film. This film
was a cartoon produced by Rankin and Bass in the style of their
cartoon of 'The Hobbit'. It mostly started from where Bakshi's cartoon
ended, and makes an 'interesting' contrast to Peter Jackson's
live-action 'The Return of the King' film.
If you haven't watched the Rankin Bass RotK cartoon, I strongly
recommend skipping this thread as it reveals things best seen when/if
you watch it for the first time.
I finally had to rewatch the Rankin Bass RotK because I was convinced
that someone had got the idea for flying horses for the Nazgul from
that film. Sadly, I was correct. But, it does do some things better
than Peter Jackson's film!!
While watching the film I had what can only be described as
PJ-moments. That feeling that something was happening that wasn't
quite right. Like the "we're not meant to be here, Sam" Osgiliath
moment.
There were of course some Tolkien-moments as well. Moments true to the
book and extensive use of book dialogue. Terrible film-making, and
more like an audio-book with cartoon pictures, but still leaving me
wishing they had done even a tiny bit more of that in the PJ films.
A) BAD THINGS
===========
1) No Arwen.
Changed because it was a single movie (no FotR or TT). In some ways
this improved things, but Aragorn became a strange, almost
unrecognisable figure. Reduced to a king-elect waving a sword about.
PJ's Arwen changes have far-reaching consequences, but I generally
like them.
2) Gollum is a toad.
Literally. Though he is actually quite sweet. Of course PJ/Serkis's
CGI Gollum is a masterpiece.
3) Winged horses for the Nazgul.
Absolutely awful. No redeeming features at all. WK still has a dragon
for big battle scene, but see later for more complaints.
3) Merry and the Red Arrow.
Merry takes the Red Arrow to Theoden. A single-movie change, but still
hilarious.
4) Excessive character exposition.
I'm not usually sensitive to this, but when the characters explain
nearly everything they do by thinking aloud to inform the audience, it
can get noticeable and annoying. Gandalf did this most noticeably by
explaining something to Pippin in the middle of a big speech to
Denethor!
5) Timelines messed up.
Frodo and Sam get to Mount Doom before the Witch-King dies. I am sure
there was some logical reason for this, but cannot work it out just
now. Anyway, Frodo and Sam spend _DAYS_ (that's right, days) wandering
around inside Mount Doom while Frodo has the Ring on. Unbelievable.
6) Eowyn and the Witch-King.
Eowyn appears suddenly for no reason. We need Merry to tell us
"Theoden's niece"! The scene with the Witch-king is OK until WK opens
his mouth. He squeaks his lines like C3PO on helium. This is so
distracting that it is impossible to concentrate on the rest of the
scene.
7) Faramir.
Faramir makes a sudden appearance at the end. He rides next to Eowyn
at the victory parade and we have no idea who he is. Good.
8) Sam and Frodo speeches.
The lovely Sam and Frodo dialogue on the slopes of Mount Doom is
spoken as they are _running_ away from the lava, rather than lying
down exhausted. It is so inappropriate I wanted to scream.
9) The Eagles.
This is so hilarious I won't spoil it for anyone. Think of the Eagle
problem tenfold.
B) GOOD THINGS
============
1) Narrator.
The device of a narrator allowed much more book narrative to be used.
Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.
2) No Army of the Dead.
This was a massive improvement on PJ's version. It is perfectly clear
that you don't need an Army of the Dead. Aragorn just arrived with the
ships, and it is assumed that they had more soldiers on board and so
won the battle.
3) Battle of the Pelennor Fields.
Followed the book very closely, except for annoying switches to Frodo
on Mount Doom. Unlike PJ, they had the cockerel crowing and a
WK-Gandalf confrontation and Theoden borne in honour from the
battlefield. Much, much better than PJ's emasculated version, even
with a C3PO WK. PJ's Charge of the Rohirrim is his only saving grace.
Interestingly, Minas Tirith is defended by trebuchets here as well.
Hmmm, dare I suggest. Naah. Surely not.
4) Mount Doom.
Lots of book moments used. Frodo's "trouble me no more", Gollum's
"dying and going to dust" speech, Frodo claiming the Ring properly,
and a proper fall.
5) Mouth of Sauron.
PJ's version in the EE might be better, but we shouldn't have had to
wait!
6) Denethor.
Horrible depiction, but great use of Denethor dialogue. PJ, by
contrast used almost none of the most relevant Denethor dialogue.
7) Samwise the Brave.
Best of all is a sequence of Samwise the Brave, the Ringlord. I won't
say any more, but this and other sequences really demonstrate what the
Ring is all about. This is something that PJ's films did not do as
well.
C) POSSIBLY GOOD THINGS
=====================
1) Friendly orcs.
A vision of the world with orcs as redeemable and friendly creatures
in peacetime. The orcs in this cartoon are so laughable that they
never feel threatening. PJ did make his orcs feel threatening, but
never made them feel human as Tolkien occasionally did.
2) Grey Havens.
The farewell scene is in the rain. Gives it a different feel to PJ's
version, and is probably a nod to the rain-curtain later in the voyage
that rolled away to reveal "white shores under a swift sunrise." It
felt quite daring, and PJ's sunset version could almost feel cliched
by comparison. All that we need now are versions where they sail away
by moonlight or by starlight. I've always imagined the book to be a
sailing into a cloudy twilight, but not a sailing into the sunset,
more a sailing after the Sun has set, in the last fading moments of
daylight.
3) Hobbits become Men.
Gandalf's comment to the hobbits. Very controversial? I was shocked at
first, but now like this idea better than the idea of hobbits fading
away. What was Tolkien's view on what happened to hobbits?
Christopher
was a cartoon produced by Rankin and Bass in the style of their
cartoon of 'The Hobbit'. It mostly started from where Bakshi's cartoon
ended, and makes an 'interesting' contrast to Peter Jackson's
live-action 'The Return of the King' film.
If you haven't watched the Rankin Bass RotK cartoon, I strongly
recommend skipping this thread as it reveals things best seen when/if
you watch it for the first time.
I finally had to rewatch the Rankin Bass RotK because I was convinced
that someone had got the idea for flying horses for the Nazgul from
that film. Sadly, I was correct. But, it does do some things better
than Peter Jackson's film!!
While watching the film I had what can only be described as
PJ-moments. That feeling that something was happening that wasn't
quite right. Like the "we're not meant to be here, Sam" Osgiliath
moment.
There were of course some Tolkien-moments as well. Moments true to the
book and extensive use of book dialogue. Terrible film-making, and
more like an audio-book with cartoon pictures, but still leaving me
wishing they had done even a tiny bit more of that in the PJ films.
A) BAD THINGS
===========
1) No Arwen.
Changed because it was a single movie (no FotR or TT). In some ways
this improved things, but Aragorn became a strange, almost
unrecognisable figure. Reduced to a king-elect waving a sword about.
PJ's Arwen changes have far-reaching consequences, but I generally
like them.
2) Gollum is a toad.
Literally. Though he is actually quite sweet. Of course PJ/Serkis's
CGI Gollum is a masterpiece.
3) Winged horses for the Nazgul.
Absolutely awful. No redeeming features at all. WK still has a dragon
for big battle scene, but see later for more complaints.
3) Merry and the Red Arrow.
Merry takes the Red Arrow to Theoden. A single-movie change, but still
hilarious.
4) Excessive character exposition.
I'm not usually sensitive to this, but when the characters explain
nearly everything they do by thinking aloud to inform the audience, it
can get noticeable and annoying. Gandalf did this most noticeably by
explaining something to Pippin in the middle of a big speech to
Denethor!
5) Timelines messed up.
Frodo and Sam get to Mount Doom before the Witch-King dies. I am sure
there was some logical reason for this, but cannot work it out just
now. Anyway, Frodo and Sam spend _DAYS_ (that's right, days) wandering
around inside Mount Doom while Frodo has the Ring on. Unbelievable.
6) Eowyn and the Witch-King.
Eowyn appears suddenly for no reason. We need Merry to tell us
"Theoden's niece"! The scene with the Witch-king is OK until WK opens
his mouth. He squeaks his lines like C3PO on helium. This is so
distracting that it is impossible to concentrate on the rest of the
scene.
7) Faramir.
Faramir makes a sudden appearance at the end. He rides next to Eowyn
at the victory parade and we have no idea who he is. Good.
8) Sam and Frodo speeches.
The lovely Sam and Frodo dialogue on the slopes of Mount Doom is
spoken as they are _running_ away from the lava, rather than lying
down exhausted. It is so inappropriate I wanted to scream.
9) The Eagles.
This is so hilarious I won't spoil it for anyone. Think of the Eagle
problem tenfold.
B) GOOD THINGS
============
1) Narrator.
The device of a narrator allowed much more book narrative to be used.
Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.
2) No Army of the Dead.
This was a massive improvement on PJ's version. It is perfectly clear
that you don't need an Army of the Dead. Aragorn just arrived with the
ships, and it is assumed that they had more soldiers on board and so
won the battle.
3) Battle of the Pelennor Fields.
Followed the book very closely, except for annoying switches to Frodo
on Mount Doom. Unlike PJ, they had the cockerel crowing and a
WK-Gandalf confrontation and Theoden borne in honour from the
battlefield. Much, much better than PJ's emasculated version, even
with a C3PO WK. PJ's Charge of the Rohirrim is his only saving grace.
Interestingly, Minas Tirith is defended by trebuchets here as well.
Hmmm, dare I suggest. Naah. Surely not.
4) Mount Doom.
Lots of book moments used. Frodo's "trouble me no more", Gollum's
"dying and going to dust" speech, Frodo claiming the Ring properly,
and a proper fall.
5) Mouth of Sauron.
PJ's version in the EE might be better, but we shouldn't have had to
wait!
6) Denethor.
Horrible depiction, but great use of Denethor dialogue. PJ, by
contrast used almost none of the most relevant Denethor dialogue.
7) Samwise the Brave.
Best of all is a sequence of Samwise the Brave, the Ringlord. I won't
say any more, but this and other sequences really demonstrate what the
Ring is all about. This is something that PJ's films did not do as
well.
C) POSSIBLY GOOD THINGS
=====================
1) Friendly orcs.
A vision of the world with orcs as redeemable and friendly creatures
in peacetime. The orcs in this cartoon are so laughable that they
never feel threatening. PJ did make his orcs feel threatening, but
never made them feel human as Tolkien occasionally did.
2) Grey Havens.
The farewell scene is in the rain. Gives it a different feel to PJ's
version, and is probably a nod to the rain-curtain later in the voyage
that rolled away to reveal "white shores under a swift sunrise." It
felt quite daring, and PJ's sunset version could almost feel cliched
by comparison. All that we need now are versions where they sail away
by moonlight or by starlight. I've always imagined the book to be a
sailing into a cloudy twilight, but not a sailing into the sunset,
more a sailing after the Sun has set, in the last fading moments of
daylight.
3) Hobbits become Men.
Gandalf's comment to the hobbits. Very controversial? I was shocked at
first, but now like this idea better than the idea of hobbits fading
away. What was Tolkien's view on what happened to hobbits?
Christopher
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Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard