Could Smaug have averted the War of the Ring? <gulp>

[Jared]

Hi all.

The current Chapter of the Week topic sparked a thought in the back of my
mind:

IDHTBIFOM, but I remember somewhere in LotR, when there is a thorough
recounting of the status of each of the rings of power, it is stated that
most (all?) of the dwarves' rings were destroyed after being consumed by
dragons.

Here's my thought: What if our dear friend Mr. Baggins (Bilbo, that is) had
not been clever enough bandying words about with the mighty worm Smaug? What
if Smaug had been able to snatch poor Bilbo up and swallow him, ring and
all? Would that have destroyed the One Ring?

Thoughts?

--
-Jared

[coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges]

Post by Jared
Hi all.
The current Chapter of the Week topic sparked a thought in the back of my
IDHTBIFOM, but I remember somewhere in LotR, when there is a thorough
recounting of the status of each of the rings of power, it is stated that
most (all?) of the dwarves' rings were destroyed after being consumed by
dragons.
Here's my thought: What if our dear friend Mr. Baggins (Bilbo, that is) had
not been clever enough bandying words about with the mighty worm Smaug? What
if Smaug had been able to snatch poor Bilbo up and swallow him, ring and
all? Would that have destroyed the One Ring?

no
gandalf informs frodo that not even the hottest worm that ever was could
that the only fire that could be in mordor

[A Tsar Is Born]

"coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"

Post by coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges

Post by Jared
Here's my thought: What if our dear friend Mr. Baggins (Bilbo, that is) had
not been clever enough bandying words about with the mighty worm Smaug? What
if Smaug had been able to snatch poor Bilbo up and swallow him, ring and
all? Would that have destroyed the One Ring?

no
gandalf informs frodo that not even the hottest worm that ever was could
that the only fire that could be in mordor

But before he excreted it, he would be invisible and quite alarming, I
imagine.

Tsar Parmathule

[The American]

Post by A Tsar Is Born
"coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"

Post by coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges

Post by Jared
Here's my thought: What if our dear friend Mr. Baggins (Bilbo, that

is)

Post by A Tsar Is Born
had

Post by coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges

Post by Jared
not been clever enough bandying words about with the mighty worm

Smaug?

Post by A Tsar Is Born
What

Post by coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges

Post by Jared
if Smaug had been able to snatch poor Bilbo up and swallow him, ring and
all? Would that have destroyed the One Ring?

no
gandalf informs frodo that not even the hottest worm that ever was could
that the only fire that could be in mordor

But before he excreted it, he would be invisible and quite alarming, I
imagine.

And then his excrement would have been invisible but smelled quite alarming.
:)

T.A.

[Insane Ranter]

Post by Jared
Hi all.
The current Chapter of the Week topic sparked a thought in the back of my
IDHTBIFOM, but I remember somewhere in LotR, when there is a thorough
recounting of the status of each of the rings of power, it is stated that
most (all?) of the dwarves' rings were destroyed after being consumed by
dragons.
Here's my thought: What if our dear friend Mr. Baggins (Bilbo, that is) had
not been clever enough bandying words about with the mighty worm Smaug? What
if Smaug had been able to snatch poor Bilbo up and swallow him, ring and
all? Would that have destroyed the One Ring?
Thoughts?
--
-Jared

Considering the whole must be thrown into the fires of Mt. doom, where it
was forged...... I like peanut butter and jelly

[Dirk Thierbach]

What if Smaug had been able to snatch poor Bilbo up and swallow him,
ring and all? Would that have destroyed the One Ring?

No. FotR, Chapter 2:

It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings
of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the
old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even
Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling
Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself.

- Dirk

[John DiFool]

Post by Dirk Thierbach

What if Smaug had been able to snatch poor Bilbo up and swallow him,
ring and all? Would that have destroyed the One Ring?

It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings
of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the
old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even
Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling
Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself.
- Dirk

Would Smaug then become imbued with the Ring's power?
Or would he have to slip it onto one of his claws somehow
for that to happen (the ring would adjust to fit I believe).
Would he then challenge Sauron, or become his #1
Instrument of Evil?

John DiFool

[Mark Kicksee]

Well the Ring does adjust to fit the wearer -- though not always a
snug fit!

Had Smaug captured the Ring, he should have been able to wear it
(assuming he could pick it up in his claws), and its power would ensure
that he would notice it and probably try it on. Whether it would make
Smaug invisible or not is another question. Generally only mortals
(men, hobbits, orcs) are rendered invisible by the rings, while
immortals (elves, wizards, Tom Bombadil, dark lords) are not. I'm not
sure whether a dwarf would vanish or not, as they have a high resistance
and cannot be reduced to shadows. In The Hobbit, Thorin mentions that
dragons live "practically forever, unless they are killed", so
presumably Smaug, being mortal, would be invisible.

That would have made it kind of tough for Bard to shoot him.

If Smaug had captured the Ring, he should have been able to use its
greater powers. Of course, being a dragon he'd probably use them for
practical matters, like regular meals and a steady income.

Post by John DiFool

Post by Dirk Thierbach

What if Smaug had been able to snatch poor Bilbo up and swallow him,
ring and all? Would that have destroyed the One Ring?

It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings
of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the
old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even
Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling
Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself.
- Dirk

Would Smaug then become imbued with the Ring's power?
Or would he have to slip it onto one of his claws somehow
for that to happen (the ring would adjust to fit I believe).
Would he then challenge Sauron, or become his #1
Instrument of Evil?
John DiFool

[Stan Brown]

Post by Mark Kicksee
Generally only mortals
(men, hobbits, orcs) are rendered invisible by the rings, while
immortals (elves, wizards, Tom Bombadil, dark lords) are not.

Where do you read that Orcs are made invisible by the rings? I'm
unaware of any such passage, but would like to extend my knowledge.

And where do you read that Elves and Wizards are not made invisible
by the rings? It's true that Gandalf's ring doesn't make him
invisible, but it's one of the Three that (Tolkien told us in a
letter) don't make _anyone_ invisible. If you have a passage that
tells us an Elf or Wizard would remain visible while wearing the
One, or one or the Seven or Nine, I'd love to know about it because
it would put to rest a question in the FAQ of the Rings.

[s***@nomail.com]

In rec.arts.books.tolkien Stan Brown <***@fastmail.fm> wrote:
: In article <nb5wb.58$***@news.nnrp.ca> in
: rec.arts.books.tolkien, Mark Kicksee <m-***@iam-net.com> wrote:
:>Generally only mortals
:>(men, hobbits, orcs) are rendered invisible by the rings, while
:>immortals (elves, wizards, Tom Bombadil, dark lords) are not.

: Where do you read that Orcs are made invisible by the rings? I'm
: unaware of any such passage, but would like to extend my knowledge.

I believe in the drafts it mentions goblin wraiths, as well as
Elvish wraiths. Tolkien changed his mind a lot about the
Rings however, so I do not know if this really tells us
much about what his final thoughts on the matter were.

Gollum thought the Ring would turn Orcs invisible, which
was a reasonable assumption for him to make, but still an
assumption.

Stephen

[Stan Brown]

In article <***@corp.supernews.com> in
rec.arts.books.tolkien, <"Jared" <kapm0rgan-at-yahoo-dot-com>>

Post by Jared
I remember somewhere in LotR, when there is a thorough
recounting of the status of each of the rings of power, it is stated that
most (all?) of the dwarves' rings were destroyed after being consumed by
dragons.

No, the Seven were discussed en bloc, not one by one. And only four
of them had been destroyed by dragons; Sauron had recovered the
other three. (You might like to have a look at the FAQ of the
Rings.)

Post by Jared
Here's my thought: What if our dear friend Mr. Baggins (Bilbo, that is) had
not been clever enough bandying words about with the mighty worm Smaug? What
if Smaug had been able to snatch poor Bilbo up and swallow him, ring and
all? Would that have destroyed the One Ring?

No.

Gandalf tells Frodo in LotR I 2: "It has been said that dragon-fire
could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any
dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was
there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have
harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron
himself. There is only one way: to find the Cracks of Doom in the
depths of Orodruin, the Fire-mountain. ..."

[Tristan Miller]

Greetings.

Post by Stan Brown
Gandalf tells Frodo in LotR I 2: "It has been said that dragon-fire
could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any
dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough..."

This implies that there were still dragons living at the time when LotR
takes place. But I thought Smaug was the last of his kind, and was
vanquished some decades earlier during Bilbo's quest. Or was he only
the last "major" dragon? If so, where were the others, and why didn't
we observe Sauron using them in the war, as Gandalf feared he would
have done with Smaug [UT:QoE]?

Regards,
Tristan

[coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges]

Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.

Post by Stan Brown
Gandalf tells Frodo in LotR I 2: "It has been said that dragon-fire
could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any
dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough..."

This implies that there were still dragons living at the time when LotR
takes place. But I thought Smaug was the last of his kind, and was
vanquished some decades earlier during Bilbo's quest. Or was he only
the last "major" dragon? If so, where were the others, and why didn't
we observe Sauron using them in the war, as Gandalf feared he would
have done with Smaug [UT:QoE]?

too far away

sauron could not use smaug or the balrog as a subordinate
rather as an ally or depending on it to hazard his enemies

[Aris Katsaris]

Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.

Post by Stan Brown
Gandalf tells Frodo in LotR I 2: "It has been said that dragon-fire
could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any
dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough..."

This implies that there were still dragons living at the time when LotR
takes place.

Yes. That's explicitely stated by Tolkien in one of his letters. There do
exist other dragons, some of which are supposed to have survived all the
way to much nearer times to our own.

Post by Tristan Miller
But I thought Smaug was the last of his kind, and was
vanquished some decades earlier during Bilbo's quest. Or was he only
the last "major" dragon?

Yeah, it seems to me that Smaug is the last of the truly big dragons.

Post by Tristan Miller
If so, where were the others, and why didn't
we observe Sauron using them in the war, as Gandalf feared he would
have done with Smaug [UT:QoE]?

*shrug* The smaller dragons probably weren't powerful enough to be of
that much use.

Aris Katsaris

[A Tsar Is Born]

Post by Aris Katsaris

Post by Tristan Miller
If so, where were the others, and why didn't
we observe Sauron using them in the war, as Gandalf feared he would
have done with Smaug [UT:QoE]?

*shrug* The smaller dragons probably weren't powerful enough to be of
that much use.
Aris Katsaris

It is nowhere suggested that Sauron controls dragons (or, to take similar
instances Shelob and the balrog) in the way that Morgoth did. He doesn't
even control all the orcs. He has to have something to offer them, to win
them over. He could offer booty to one or two, but more than that would only
cause rivalries to arise. If Smaug were still around, he might be able to
lure Smaug into his camp (Smaug certainly wouldn't have joined the other
side, but might prefer to sit the thing out and eat the survivors). But he
doesn't automatically run him.

One of JRRT's themes is that the evil powers are incapable of unselfishly
joining forces, and even the good powers have trouble overcoming their
prejudices. But the latter CAN do it, being capable of affection and
good-fellowship. The evil powers are not. Dragons and balrogs and spiders
(oh my) may be evil, but they are not a monolithic evil behind Sauron --
like Saruman or Shagrat and Gorbag, they don't really want him to triumph if
it costs them their freedom of action. Only the Nazgul are totally
trustworthy to Sauron, and for good reason.

This, no doubt, is behind the Freudian tract, "What do orcs want?"

Which I have not written yet.

New thread!

Tsar Parmathule

[Yuk Tang]

Post by A Tsar Is Born
This, no doubt, is behind the Freudian tract, "What do orcs want?"
Which I have not written yet.
New thread!

Is this a call for slash fic?

[phobos]

Post by A Tsar Is Born

Post by Aris Katsaris

Post by Tristan Miller
If so, where were the others, and why didn't
we observe Sauron using them in the war, as Gandalf feared he would
have done with Smaug [UT:QoE]?

*shrug* The smaller dragons probably weren't powerful enough to be of
that much use.
Aris Katsaris

It is nowhere suggested that Sauron controls dragons (or, to take similar
instances Shelob and the balrog) in the way that Morgoth did. He doesn't
even control all the orcs. He has to have something to offer them, to win
them over. He could offer booty to one or two, but more than that would only
cause rivalries to arise. If Smaug were still around, he might be able to
lure Smaug into his camp (Smaug certainly wouldn't have joined the other
side, but might prefer to sit the thing out and eat the survivors). But he
doesn't automatically run him.

I imagine Smaug's role in the War of the Ring to be something like:

1. Land on Minas Tirith in middle of siege.

2. Toast everything in sight - Dunedain, Rohirrim, soldiers of Gondor,
wizard, orcs, Nazgul, the lot.

3. Sit on treasure.

But only if the treasure of Minas Tirith is greater than that of
Erebor, of course.

[A Tsar Is Born]

Post by phobos
1. Land on Minas Tirith in middle of siege.
2. Toast everything in sight - Dunedain, Rohirrim, soldiers of Gondor,
wizard, orcs, Nazgul, the lot.
3. Sit on treasure.
But only if the treasure of Minas Tirith is greater than that of
Erebor, of course.

Depends: workmanship or value weight-for-weight?
Both dwarves and dragons, faced with this question, would reply:
Hmmmmmmm.....

Tsar Parmathule