Getting started with Finnish and Old German Folklore

[Faux Dameron]

Hi all,

I've read many times that Tolkien's works were heavily influenced by
Finnish and Old Germanic (i.e. German, Scandinavian, Icelandish, etc.)
legends and folklore.

I was wondering if someone could point me to any specific works that
would have been an inspiration to Tolkien's works. Thanks.

FD

[Stan Brown]

Post by Faux Dameron
I've read many times that Tolkien's works were heavily influenced
by Finnish and Old Germanic (i.e. German, Scandinavian, Icelandish,
etc.) legends and folklore.
I was wondering if someone could point me to any specific works that
would have been an inspiration to Tolkien's works. Thanks.

The Kalevala, in particular the story of Kullervo. Somewhere in a
letter, I think, Tolkien actually said that Kullervo was the model
for Turin Turambar.

Here it is, from Letter 163, to W. H. Auden:

"I was immensely attracted by something in the air of the Kalevala,
even in Kirby?s poor translation. ... But the beginning of the
legendarium, of which the Trilogy is part (the conclusion), was in an
attempt to reorganize some of the Kalevala, especially the tale of
Kullervo the hapless, into a form of my own."

[Steve Morrison]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Faux Dameron
I've read many times that Tolkien's works were heavily influenced
by Finnish and Old Germanic (i.e. German, Scandinavian, Icelandish,
etc.) legends and folklore.
I was wondering if someone could point me to any specific works that
would have been an inspiration to Tolkien's works. Thanks.

The Kalevala, in particular the story of Kullervo. Somewhere in a
letter, I think, Tolkien actually said that Kullervo was the model
for Turin Turambar.
"I was immensely attracted by something in the air of the Kalevala,
even in Kirby?s poor translation. ... But the beginning of the
legendarium, of which the Trilogy is part (the conclusion), was in an
attempt to reorganize some of the Kalevala, especially the tale of
Kullervo the hapless, into a form of my own."

The Kalevala has precursors for quite a few other things in Tolkien,
too. The quest for the Sampo and its aftermath are similar in quite a
few ways to the quest of the Silmaril. And in an early section of the
Kalevala, a wizard in a predicament is rescued by a mighty eagle who
remembers a favor the wizard did him long ago. Tor.com blogs once
published a post on the Kalevala here:
https://www.tor.com/2011/09/20/the-beauty-of-the-kalevala/
which contains some advice on which translation to read. (Though you
can also find some older translations on Project Gutenberg, including
the Kirby translation which Tolkien read.)
As for Norse/Germanic mythology: Tolkien was also heavily influenced
by the Volsung cycle. You can easily find the /Volsung Saga/ either
online or in book form; the /Poetic Edda/ also contains stories from
it, as well as quite a bit else which influenced Tolkien. (E.g., the
well-known list of dwarf-names which Tolkien raided for the names of
Thorin and Company.)

[John W Kennedy]

Post by Steve Morrison

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Faux Dameron
I've read many times that Tolkien's works were heavily influenced
by Finnish and Old Germanic (i.e. German, Scandinavian, Icelandish,
etc.) legends and folklore.
I was wondering if someone could point me to any specific works that
would have been an inspiration to Tolkien's works. Thanks.

The Kalevala, in particular the story of Kullervo. Somewhere in a
letter, I think, Tolkien actually said that Kullervo was the model
for Turin Turambar.
"I was immensely attracted by something in the air of the Kalevala,
even in Kirby?s poor translation. ... But the beginning of the
legendarium, of which the Trilogy is part (the conclusion), was in an
attempt to reorganize some of the Kalevala, especially the tale of
Kullervo the hapless, into a form of my own."

The Kalevala has precursors for quite a few other things in Tolkien,
too. The quest for the Sampo and its aftermath are similar in quite a
few ways to the quest of the Silmaril. And in an early section of the
Kalevala, a wizard in a predicament is rescued by a mighty eagle who
remembers a favor the wizard did him long ago. Tor.com blogs once
https://www.tor.com/2011/09/20/the-beauty-of-the-kalevala/
which contains some advice on which translation to read. (Though you
can also find some older translations on Project Gutenberg, including
the Kirby translation which Tolkien read.)
As for Norse/Germanic mythology: Tolkien was also heavily influenced
by the Volsung cycle. You can easily find the /Volsung Saga/ either
online or in book form; the /Poetic Edda/ also contains stories from
it, as well as quite a bit else which influenced Tolkien. (E.g., the
well-known list of dwarf-names which Tolkien raided for the names of
Thorin and Company.)

It’s easy to draw one-to-one lines between Wagner’s ring and Tolkien’s
ring, too. (It was the matter of my 12th-grade English term paper.)

[Stan Brown]

It?s easy to draw one-to-one lines between Wagner?s ring and Tolkien?s
ring, too. (It was the matter of my 12th-grade English term paper.)

And of a section of the FAQ of the Rings, too. (URL below.)

[Steve Morrison]

Post by Stan Brown

It?s easy to draw one-to-one lines between Wagner?s ring and Tolkien?s
ring, too. (It was the matter of my 12th-grade English term paper.)

And of a section of the FAQ of the Rings, too. (URL below.)

There have been whole books written about Wagnerian influence on
Tolkien. I recommend /Wagner and Tolkien: Mythmakers/ by Renee Vink.
It compiles so many parallels between /LotR/ and /Der Ring/ as to
leave me completely convinced that there was serious influence there--
even after allowing for common sources, which this book carefully
does.

[John W Kennedy]

Post by Steve Morrison

Post by Stan Brown

It?s easy to draw one-to-one lines between Wagner?s ring and Tolkien?s
ring, too. (It was the matter of my 12th-grade English term paper.)

And of a section of the FAQ of the Rings, too. (URL below.)

There have been whole books written about Wagnerian influence on
Tolkien. I recommend /Wagner and Tolkien: Mythmakers/ by Renee Vink.
It compiles so many parallels between /LotR/ and /Der Ring/ as to
leave me completely convinced that there was serious influence there--
even after allowing for common sources, which this book carefully
does.

Perhaps I should remark that I graduated from high school in 1966.

Lin Carter treated the subject in his book a few years later.

[Steve Morrison]

Post by John W Kennedy

Post by Steve Morrison

Post by Stan Brown

It?s easy to draw one-to-one lines between Wagner?s ring and Tolkien?s
ring, too. (It was the matter of my 12th-grade English term paper.)

And of a section of the FAQ of the Rings, too. (URL below.)

There have been whole books written about Wagnerian influence on
Tolkien. I recommend /Wagner and Tolkien: Mythmakers/ by Renee Vink.
It compiles so many parallels between /LotR/ and /Der Ring/ as to
leave me completely convinced that there was serious influence there--
even after allowing for common sources, which this book carefully
does.

Perhaps I should remark that I graduated from high school in 1966.
Lin Carter treated the subject in his book a few years later.

Well, you and Carter certainly have priority, then.
I've been rereading the Vink book, and it makes one interesting
point: when Tolkien made his oft-quoted "both rings were round, and
there the resemblance ceases" remark, he wasn't talking about Wagner
at all! Here is the remark in context:


/The Ring is in a certain way 'der Nibelungen Ring'. . . ./

Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceases.

/. . . . which was originally forged by Volund the master-smith, and
then by way of Vittka-Andvare passed through the hands of the mighty
asar [Æsir] into the possession of Hreidmar and the dragon, after the
dragon's fall coming to Sigurd the dragonslayer, after his murder by
treacherous conspirators coming to the Burgundians, after their death
in Atle's snake-pit coming to the Huns, then to the sons of Jonaker,
to the Gothic tyrant Ermanrik, etc./

Thank heaven for the /etc/. I began to fear that it would turn up in
my pocket. Evidently Dr. O thinks that it is in his. But what is the
point of all this? Those who know something about the Old Norse side
of the 'Nibelung' traditions (mainly referred to since the name-forms
used are Norse) will think this a farrago of nonsense; those who do
not, will hardly be interested.


As Tolkien points out, Ohlmarks's reference was to the Norse legends
rather than to Wagner's /Ring/.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Steve Morrison
I've been rereading the Vink book, and it makes one interesting
point: when Tolkien made his oft-quoted "both rings were round, and
there the resemblance ceases" remark, he wasn't talking about Wagner
/The Ring is in a certain way 'der Nibelungen Ring'. . . ./
Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceases.
/. . . . which was originally forged by Volund the master-smith, and
then ...
As Tolkien points out, Ohlmarks's reference was to the Norse legends
rather than to Wagner's /Ring/.

Well, heck! Your point is well taken, and I can't imagine now how I
failed to notice that when reading /Letters/. I'll have to figure out
how to update the FAQ of the Rings.

I think we might say that Ohlmarks made yet another of his errors in
comparing Tolkien's Ring to the one in the Norse sagas instead of to
Wagner's. The person posting as "A Tsar Is Born" made the case that
Wagner invented the idea of a ring-that-rules-the-world, which was
not part of the Norse source material. The same poster also pointed
out that Tolkien had been to performances of the Ring, and that
"every literate human being in Europe" in Tolkien's time knew
Wagner's story line.

Of course, Tolkien developed the idea in quite a different direction
from Wagner. But, despite Ohlmarks' misdirection, I think we are
right to compare Tolkien's Ring to Wagner's, without worrying too
much about the original Norse legends.

[Stan Brown]

Well, heck! [Steve Morrison's] point is well taken, and I can't
imagine now how I
failed to notice that when reading /Letters/. I'll have to figure out
how to update the FAQ of the Rings.
The person posting as "A Tsar Is Born" made the case that
Wagner invented the idea of a ring-that-rules-the-world, which was
not part of the Norse source material. The same poster also pointed
out that Tolkien had been to performances of the Ring, and that
"every literate human being in Europe" in Tolkien's time knew
Wagner's story line.
Of course, Tolkien developed the idea in quite a different direction
from Wagner. But, despite Ohlmarks' misdirection, I think we are
right to compare Tolkien's Ring to Wagner's, without worrying too
much about the original Norse legends.

For those who'd like to read the two articles by "A Tsar Is Born",
here they are:

https://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaqref.htm#Tsar_2002-04-11

[O. Sharp]

Post by Stan Brown

It?s easy to draw one-to-one lines between Wagner?s ring and Tolkien?s
ring, too. (It was the matter of my 12th-grade English term paper.)

And of a section of the FAQ of the Rings, too. (URL below.)

For those who aren't familiar with Wagner's version, there's a
Horribly Accurate Synopsis Of The Ring Cycle (tm) posted at
flyingmoose.org, home of the Tolkien Sarcasm Page. You can find it at:

http://flyingmoose.org/stage/ring.htm

I've worked backstage on the full Ring cycle more times than I can bear
to remember. It doesn't radically improve with repetition.

--------------------------------------------------------------
***@panix.com Hi, everybody! Yes, I do still lurk here from
time to time. :)

[Stan Brown]

Post by O. Sharp
For those who aren't familiar with Wagner's version, there's a
Horribly Accurate Synopsis Of The Ring Cycle (tm) posted at
http://flyingmoose.org/stage/ring.htm

Cute!

I'm very fond of Anna Russell's version; do you know it? It's equally
accurate.

"So Siegfried gives Brunnhilde the Ring. She's his aunt, by the way.
But they're in love and very happy, and you'd think that would be the
end of it. No fear -- Gotterdammerung!"

Later, when Siegfried drinks the magic potion and falls in love with
Gutrune Gibich, Miss Russell informs us that "she's the only woman
Siegfried has ever met who wasn't his aunt." When the laughter
subsides, she says, in mock-offended tones, "I'm not making this up,
you know!" -- which gets a bigger laugh.

is my favorite version, and the one that was on the album she signed
for me in Philadelphia. It's about 20 minutes long, and I promise you
will like it.

Then there's this 2½ minute synopsis: