The Fellowship Of The... King?

[O. Sharp]

Wow. I was unaware of this until I saw an article about it in the New York
Times this morning.

It seems someone named Demetrious Polychron - which sounds like an alias
to me, but I guess that's really his name - started writing a sequal to
_LotR_. That's all right, I suppose, even though JRRT himself had started
working on a sequal but abandoned it ("I could have written a 'thriller'
about [a Fourth Age plot against Gondor] and its discovery and overthrow
but it would have been just that. Not worth doing." _Letters_ #256), and
if _he_ decided it wasn't worth it I'm surprised someone _else_ would try
it.

A blurb that hasn't been removed from the web yet describes the plot,
beginning in the "22nd year of the reign of High King Elessar. Elanor
Gamgee Gardner, daughter of Samwise, is about to celebrate her debutante
party" - really? was the Shire really based on the antebellum South all
this time? - "when Blue Wizards from the East arrive with terrible news:
the original Rings of Power have been discovered." Seems odd, with the One
destroyed, the Three departed West, and the Nine presumably destroyed in
the fall of the Barad-dur; but we'll let that pass. "Dark forces seeking
the return of Morgoth, Sauron's former master, hope to recover the Rings
of Power that will enable Morgoth to bring all of Middle-earth under his
control. Elanor and her two Hobbit friends, Fastred and Theo (son of Merry
Brandybuck), join Crown Prince Eldarion (the Half-elven son of King
Elessar and Queen Arwen), his uncles Elladan and Elrohir, and Alatar, one
of the Blue Wizards, on a quest to find the Rings of Power and prevent
Middle-earth from falling to Morgoth's servants of evil."

A little wacky, a bit unlikely, and frankly not all that engaging from
that description, but what the hell; tastes differ. I've written much
stupider things myself. "Saruman's Diary", f'rinstance. :) And people
have a right to amuse themselves, and to write what they want to write.
If Polychron had limited himself to fan-fiction, I suppose everything
would have been okay.

But in hopes of going further he contacted the Tolkien Estate, looking to
get permission to start publishing his sequal. The Estate declined,
unsurprisingly, and informed him of their general policy of not licensing
literary sequals or extensions to Tolkien's works.

...And that's where it all went sideways, because it seems Polychron
decided to not worry about the Estate's wishes, or indeed their
copyrights; he went ahead and self-published the first volume of his
sequal, _The Fellowship Of The King_ (yes, "King"; you read that right),
in 2022.

And shortly afterwards, in what I have to say was a pretty extraordinary
display of chutzpah, Polychron then tried to sue the Tolkien Estate and
Amazon(!), claiming the Amazon video series "Lord of the Rings: Rings of
Power" infringed on _his_ copyright(!!), and asked the court for two
hundred fifty million dollars in compensation (yes, again, you read that
right).

...That case got dismissed as "frivolous". :) The judge in the case
ordered Polychron to pay the Estate and Amazon $134,000 in legal fees (I
assume this was somewhat less frivolous for him); and the court also
ordered that all copies of _The Fellowship Of The King_ be destroyed.


As an exercise for the two or three of you who still visit
rec.arts.books.tolkien, or indeed any of Usenet, I invite you to suggest a
moral to today's story. :)


-----------------------------------------------------------------
***@panix.com Mystery Science Theatre 3000 once posited,
"Don't show a good movie in the middle of your crappy
movie." There may be a literary analogue to that. :)


The synopsis:
https://indiereader.com/book_review/the-fellowship-of-the-king/

The _NYTimes_ article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/arts/lord-of-the-rings-sequel-lawsuit.html

MST3K reference:

[Stan Brown]

Post by O. Sharp
Wow. I was unaware of this until I saw an article about it in the New York
Times this morning.
It seems someone named Demetrious Polychron - which sounds like an alias
to me, but I guess that's really his name - started writing a sequal to
_LotR_. That's all right, I suppose, even though JRRT himself had started
working on a sequal but abandoned it ("I could have written a 'thriller'
about [a Fourth Age plot against Gondor] and its discovery and overthrow
but it would have been just that. Not worth doing." _Letters_ #256), and
if _he_ decided it wasn't worth it I'm surprised someone _else_ would try
it.
A blurb that hasn't been removed from the web yet describes the plot,
beginning in the "22nd year of the reign of High King Elessar. Elanor
Gamgee Gardner, daughter of Samwise, is about to celebrate her debutante
party" - really? was the Shire really based on the antebellum South all
the original Rings of Power have been discovered." Seems odd, with the One
destroyed, the Three departed West, and the Nine presumably destroyed in
the fall of the Barad-dur; but we'll let that pass. "Dark forces seeking
the return of Morgoth, Sauron's former master, hope to recover the Rings
of Power that will enable Morgoth to bring all of Middle-earth under his
control. Elanor and her two Hobbit friends, Fastred and Theo (son of Merry
Brandybuck), join Crown Prince Eldarion (the Half-elven son of King
Elessar and Queen Arwen), his uncles Elladan and Elrohir, and Alatar, one
of the Blue Wizards, on a quest to find the Rings of Power and prevent
Middle-earth from falling to Morgoth's servants of evil."
A little wacky, a bit unlikely, and frankly not all that engaging from
that description, but what the hell; tastes differ. I've written much
stupider things myself. "Saruman's Diary", f'rinstance. :) And people
have a right to amuse themselves, and to write what they want to write.
If Polychron had limited himself to fan-fiction, I suppose everything
would have been okay.
But in hopes of going further he contacted the Tolkien Estate, looking to
get permission to start publishing his sequal. The Estate declined,
unsurprisingly, and informed him of their general policy of not licensing
literary sequals or extensions to Tolkien's works.
...And that's where it all went sideways, because it seems Polychron
decided to not worry about the Estate's wishes, or indeed their
copyrights; he went ahead and self-published the first volume of his
sequal, _The Fellowship Of The King_ (yes, "King"; you read that right),
in 2022.
And shortly afterwards, in what I have to say was a pretty extraordinary
display of chutzpah, Polychron then tried to sue the Tolkien Estate and
Amazon(!), claiming the Amazon video series "Lord of the Rings: Rings of
Power" infringed on _his_ copyright(!!), and asked the court for two
hundred fifty million dollars in compensation (yes, again, you read that
right).
...That case got dismissed as "frivolous". :) The judge in the case
ordered Polychron to pay the Estate and Amazon $134,000 in legal fees (I
assume this was somewhat less frivolous for him); and the court also
ordered that all copies of _The Fellowship Of The King_ be destroyed.
As an exercise for the two or three of you who still visit
rec.arts.books.tolkien, or indeed any of Usenet, I invite you to suggest a
moral to today's story. :)

That brings to mind this exchange in "Tucker's Courtroom Coup", which
was episode 3 of the very funny (and therefore prematurely canceled)
lawyer show /The Associates/. At the end of a trial, the head of the
firm (Wilfrid Hyde-White) has some comments after observing Tucker
Kerwin (Martin Short) in action:

Marshall: Well, my boy, what lesson did you learn from this, eh?

Kerwin: Never ask a witness a question to which I don't already know
the answer?

Marshall: That's a good lesson. I know a better one: Don't be a
flaming jackass!

I think Polychron could have benefited from such advice. I read the
same article you did, and he struck me as being a bit mentally
unbalanced, feeling he _must_ get his writing out there, come what
may.

[Louis Epstein]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by O. Sharp
Wow. I was unaware of this until I saw an article about it in the New York
Times this morning.
It seems someone named Demetrious Polychron - which sounds like an alias
to me, but I guess that's really his name - started writing a sequal to

Perhaps by deliberate adoption,but hard to believe that it would be a
birth name.

Post by Stan Brown

Post by O. Sharp
_LotR_. That's all right, I suppose, even though JRRT himself had started
working on a sequal but abandoned it ("I could have written a 'thriller'
about [a Fourth Age plot against Gondor] and its discovery and overthrow
but it would have been just that. Not worth doing." _Letters_ #256), and
if _he_ decided it wasn't worth it I'm surprised someone _else_ would try
it.
A blurb that hasn't been removed from the web yet describes the plot,
beginning in the "22nd year of the reign of High King Elessar. Elanor
Gamgee Gardner, daughter of Samwise, is about to celebrate her debutante
party" - really? was the Shire really based on the antebellum South all

I don't think the Southern USA invented society debuts,
but the Suza certainly wouldn't have institutionalized them.

Post by Stan Brown

Post by O. Sharp
the original Rings of Power have been discovered." Seems odd, with the One

I assume that this would be some lesser prototype-ish rings
as distinct from the Great Rings?

Post by Stan Brown

Post by O. Sharp
destroyed, the Three departed West, and the Nine presumably destroyed in
the fall of the Barad-dur; but we'll let that pass. "Dark forces seeking

The Witch-King's ring was I think abandoned in the Pelennor Fields
("The Nine the Nazgul keep",Gandalf said) and I could see it being
the nexus of a would-be Fourth Age Dark Lord,but that's not the
avenue this fanficker tried.

Post by Stan Brown

Post by O. Sharp
the return of Morgoth, Sauron's former master, hope to recover the Rings
of Power that will enable Morgoth to bring all of Middle-earth under his
control. Elanor and her two Hobbit friends, Fastred and Theo (son of Merry
Brandybuck), join Crown Prince Eldarion (the Half-elven son of King
Elessar and Queen Arwen), his uncles Elladan and Elrohir, and Alatar, one
of the Blue Wizards, on a quest to find the Rings of Power and prevent
Middle-earth from falling to Morgoth's servants of evil."

This would be in the Tale of Years if it happened,and it isn't,
and it didn't.

Post by Stan Brown

Post by O. Sharp
A little wacky, a bit unlikely, and frankly not all that engaging from
that description, but what the hell; tastes differ. I've written much
stupider things myself. "Saruman's Diary", f'rinstance. :) And people
have a right to amuse themselves, and to write what they want to write.
If Polychron had limited himself to fan-fiction, I suppose everything
would have been okay.
But in hopes of going further he contacted the Tolkien Estate, looking to
get permission to start publishing his sequal. The Estate declined,
unsurprisingly, and informed him of their general policy of not licensing
literary sequals or extensions to Tolkien's works.
...And that's where it all went sideways, because it seems Polychron
decided to not worry about the Estate's wishes, or indeed their
copyrights; he went ahead and self-published the first volume of his
sequal, _The Fellowship Of The King_ (yes, "King"; you read that right),
in 2022.
And shortly afterwards, in what I have to say was a pretty extraordinary
display of chutzpah, Polychron then tried to sue the Tolkien Estate and
Amazon(!), claiming the Amazon video series "Lord of the Rings: Rings of
Power" infringed on _his_ copyright(!!), and asked the court for two
hundred fifty million dollars in compensation (yes, again, you read that
right).

In for a penny of foolishness,in for a pound.

Post by Stan Brown

Post by O. Sharp
...That case got dismissed as "frivolous". :) The judge in the case
ordered Polychron to pay the Estate and Amazon $134,000 in legal fees (I
assume this was somewhat less frivolous for him); and the court also
ordered that all copies of _The Fellowship Of The King_ be destroyed.
As an exercise for the two or three of you who still visit
rec.arts.books.tolkien, or indeed any of Usenet, I invite you to suggest a
moral to today's story. :)

That brings to mind this exchange in "Tucker's Courtroom Coup", which
was episode 3 of the very funny (and therefore prematurely canceled)

No,"The Associates" was cancelled because its morose theme song made
people change the channel during opening titles rather than stick
around for the funny parts.

Post by Stan Brown
lawyer show /The Associates/. At the end of a trial, the head of the
firm (Wilfrid Hyde-White) has some comments after observing Tucker
Marshall: Well, my boy, what lesson did you learn from this, eh?
Kerwin: Never ask a witness a question to which I don't already know
the answer?
Marshall: That's a good lesson. I know a better one: Don't be a
flaming jackass!
I think Polychron could have benefited from such advice. I read the
same article you did, and he struck me as being a bit mentally
unbalanced, feeling he _must_ get his writing out there, come what
may.

Perhaps he can be the next Donald Trump?

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

[O. Sharp]

Wow! Multiple replies. It seems Usenet isn't actually quite dead yet. :)

Post by Stan Brown
Marshall: Well, my boy, what lesson did you learn from this, eh?
Kerwin: Never ask a witness a question to which I don't already know
the answer?
Marshall: That's a good lesson. I know a better one: Don't be a
flaming jackass!

This is delightfully sound advice. :)

Thanks to a discussion in a Reddit group, I see the "Fellowship Of The
King" is now available as a free PDF - ironically because the Tolkien
Estate submitted the entire manuscript as evidence in one of their court
cases, where it has now become part of the public record (they "salted
the earth once and for all", as the posting Redditor notes). I've had a
(thankfully) brief look at it, and will provide you with a (blessedly)
short sample in a moment.

I tried reading it, and could only go so far before turning my eyes away
in hopes of saving my brain. Simply put, I don't recommend it. For all
those who enjoy writing, however, I will give my own short takeaway from
glancing at this thing:


If you self-publish, and even if you insist on self-publishing blatant
infringements of other authors' beloved copyrighted classics, for
God's sake get yourself a smart editor and some good proofreaders.
As offended as I was by the ridiculous, brazen defiance of Professor
Tolkien's good works and legacy, I was somehow equally offended by the
gentleman's incoherent paragraph structure and inability to properly place
his commas.


Thank you. :)

As promised, or perhaps threatened, a sample of the manuscript follows.
This is from Chapter Two, "The Shadow Of The Future". Alatar the Blue
Wizard is reading an ancient verse to Sam Gamgee, Rosie and a few other
Hobbits. The quote from Sam which follows the verse is, I emphasize,
directly from the manuscript.

<quote:>

"This is the verse I mentioned earlier," Alatar answered, clearing his
throat. "It records their efforts and prophesies an end to their labors."

Thirteen Rings for Enchanted beings that swim, run and fly
Eleven for Dwarf and Elven lords wherever they may roam
Five for Mortal Warriors destined to die
One for the Bright Lord on his Golden Throne
In the East of Eregion, where the Misty Mountains lie
One King will gather them all, one King will unite them
One King will lead them against the evil that will smite them
In the Land of Mordor, they will triumph... or die

"That's just a bad imitation of the original verses about the real Rings
of Power!" Sam shouted. "What do you really want? Why are you making all
of this up?!"

<unquote>

--------------------------------------------------------------------
***@panix.com Hard to believe, but I think Imitation Sam[tm] has
summed up this post better than I ever could. :)

[Louis Epstein]

Post by O. Sharp
Wow! Multiple replies. It seems Usenet isn't actually quite dead yet. :)

Did we ever establish what would have happened if
O. Sharp got hold of the One Ring?

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

[O. Sharp]

Post by Louis Epstein
Did we ever establish what would have happened if
O. Sharp got hold of the One Ring?

Oh, that's an easy one. In place of the Dark Lord you would set up a God.
But I would not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and
the Night. Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain!
Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of
the earth. All shall love me and despair! ...In other words, basically,
things would be exactly the same as they are now. :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
***@panix.com Oh, and I could turn invisible too, I s'pose. But
if you'd ever witnessed me at social events, you'd know
I can do that already. :)

[Louis Epstein]

Post by O. Sharp

Post by Louis Epstein
Did we ever establish what would have happened if
O. Sharp got hold of the One Ring?

Oh, that's an easy one. In place of the Dark Lord you would set up a God.
But I would not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and
the Night. Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain!
Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of
the earth. All shall love me and despair! ...In other words, basically,
things would be exactly the same as they are now. :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
if you'd ever witnessed me at social events, you'd know
I can do that already. :)

But if you did that,how could we witness it?

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

[Paul S Person]

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 18:35:16 -0000 (UTC), "O. Sharp" <***@panix.com>
wrote:

<snipped -- very droll>

Post by O. Sharp
A blurb that hasn't been removed from the web yet describes the plot,
beginning in the "22nd year of the reign of High King Elessar. Elanor
Gamgee Gardner, daughter of Samwise, is about to celebrate her debutante
party" - really? was the Shire really based on the antebellum South all
this time?

More likely the antebellum South got the custom from Merry Olde
England.

And the Shire, of course, predated both.

<snipped>

[Julian Bradfield]

Post by Paul S Person
<snipped -- very droll>

Post by O. Sharp
A blurb that hasn't been removed from the web yet describes the plot,
beginning in the "22nd year of the reign of High King Elessar. Elanor
Gamgee Gardner, daughter of Samwise, is about to celebrate her debutante
party" - really? was the Shire really based on the antebellum South all
this time?

More likely the antebellum South got the custom from Merry Olde
England.

Indeed. The debs started in the time of Elizabeth I; they were last
presented at Court in 1958, and the last traditional deb's party was
in 1975. (Though I don't think debs hosted parties in Britain - they
went to them.)

Post by Paul S Person
And the Shire, of course, predated both.
<snipped>

[Paul S Person]

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 02:35:28 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Paul S Person
<snipped -- very droll>

Post by O. Sharp
A blurb that hasn't been removed from the web yet describes the plot,
beginning in the "22nd year of the reign of High King Elessar. Elanor
Gamgee Gardner, daughter of Samwise, is about to celebrate her debutante
party" - really? was the Shire really based on the antebellum South all
this time?

More likely the antebellum South got the custom from Merry Olde
England.

Indeed. The debs started in the time of Elizabeth I; they were last
presented at Court in 1958, and the last traditional deb's party was
in 1975. (Though I don't think debs hosted parties in Britain - they
went to them.)

I don't think they ever hosted them (I could be wrong) -- I think they
have always been hosted either by an organization or by the parents
(which may indeed be the same thing, under the hood, as it were) to
"present" their daughters into society.

Or, from what you say above, to the current King or Queen in England.
Up to 1958, per the above, anyway.

They may even be related to (in the sense of inspiring) the Senior
Prom tradition in High School -- for hoi polloi, of course.

Then again, I may be confusing two or three different traditions here.

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Paul S Person
And the Shire, of course, predated both.
<snipped>

[Louis Epstein]

Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 02:35:28 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Paul S Person
<snipped -- very droll>

Post by O. Sharp
A blurb that hasn't been removed from the web yet describes the plot,
beginning in the "22nd year of the reign of High King Elessar. Elanor
Gamgee Gardner, daughter of Samwise, is about to celebrate her debutante
party" - really? was the Shire really based on the antebellum South all
this time?

More likely the antebellum South got the custom from Merry Olde
England.

Indeed. The debs started in the time of Elizabeth I; they were last
presented at Court in 1958, and the last traditional deb's party was
in 1975. (Though I don't think debs hosted parties in Britain - they
went to them.)

I don't think they ever hosted them (I could be wrong) -- I think they
have always been hosted either by an organization or by the parents
(which may indeed be the same thing, under the hood, as it were) to
"present" their daughters into society.

It's my understanding that the very richest (and I suppose royalty)
would organize a private debut to be all about their own daughter,
while the next rung down among the richest would organize group
events and the organizers would decide who deserved to be at their
events.

It's similar to the royal/icing-on-the-uppercrust tradition of
educating children "privately" (as in engaging tutors specifically
to teach their own children) being the tiny pinnacle above those
sent to "public schools" of the Winchester/Eton/Harrow/etc. variety
where groups of children were educated "in public" but not among
or under the auspices of the general public.

There is nothing about Sam Gamgee that indicates he would be engaged
in opulent social ritual,even though another of his daughters married
the Thain.

Post by Paul S Person
Or, from what you say above, to the current King or Queen in England.
Up to 1958, per the above, anyway.
They may even be related to (in the sense of inspiring) the Senior
Prom tradition in High School -- for hoi polloi, of course.
Then again, I may be confusing two or three different traditions here.

I am not sure who the presentation of a high school senior event
would be directed toward,it's more a matter of the school community
than becoming of age in the eyes of anyone external.

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Paul S Person
And the Shire, of course, predated both.
<snipped>

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

[Paul S Person]

On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 03:15:48 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein

Post by Louis Epstein

Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 02:35:28 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Paul S Person
<snipped -- very droll>

Post by O. Sharp
A blurb that hasn't been removed from the web yet describes the plot,
beginning in the "22nd year of the reign of High King Elessar. Elanor
Gamgee Gardner, daughter of Samwise, is about to celebrate her debutante
party" - really? was the Shire really based on the antebellum South all
this time?

More likely the antebellum South got the custom from Merry Olde
England.

Indeed. The debs started in the time of Elizabeth I; they were last
presented at Court in 1958, and the last traditional deb's party was
in 1975. (Though I don't think debs hosted parties in Britain - they
went to them.)

I don't think they ever hosted them (I could be wrong) -- I think they
have always been hosted either by an organization or by the parents
(which may indeed be the same thing, under the hood, as it were) to
"present" their daughters into society.

It's my understanding that the very richest (and I suppose royalty)
would organize a private debut to be all about their own daughter,
while the next rung down among the richest would organize group
events and the organizers would decide who deserved to be at their
events.
It's similar to the royal/icing-on-the-uppercrust tradition of
educating children "privately" (as in engaging tutors specifically
to teach their own children) being the tiny pinnacle above those
sent to "public schools" of the Winchester/Eton/Harrow/etc. variety
where groups of children were educated "in public" but not among
or under the auspices of the general public.
There is nothing about Sam Gamgee that indicates he would be engaged
in opulent social ritual,even though another of his daughters married
the Thain.

Not /that/ opulent although, as ten-times Mayor, I would think his
social status was rather higher at the end of his life than at the
start of /LOTR/.

Post by Louis Epstein

Post by Paul S Person
Or, from what you say above, to the current King or Queen in England.
Up to 1958, per the above, anyway.
They may even be related to (in the sense of inspiring) the Senior
Prom tradition in High School -- for hoi polloi, of course.
Then again, I may be confusing two or three different traditions here.

I am not sure who the presentation of a high school senior event
would be directed toward,it's more a matter of the school community
than becoming of age in the eyes of anyone external.

True, if it is related at all it is a lesser form than the real thing.

One of my Miss Manner's books (IIRC; it /could/ have been a column
enountered elsewhere) featured a letter from a mother asking her
opinion of something she and her friends were doing (or thinking of
doing):

since their children were all very busy professionals who didn't get
out much, they had (or were planning to) throw a series of parties for
them at which they could mix, match, and, God willing, marry suitable
persons and produce grandchildren

Miss Manners approved, pointing out that they were doing (or planning
to do) much the same thing as coming-out/presentation parties did.
Just less formally and without the fancy name.

This is the same Miss Manners who, in responding to a hostess who
wanted all her unmarried guests to be assigned separate bedrooms no
matter what /they/ wanted, suggested the Victorian-era approach:

Assign them to separate bedrooms and expect them to retire to them and
to be in them the next morning -- but pay no attention at all the the
sound of footsteps in the night.

Post by Louis Epstein

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Paul S Person
And the Shire, of course, predated both.
<snipped>

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

[Louis Epstein]

Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 03:15:48 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein

Post by Louis Epstein

Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 02:35:28 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Paul S Person
<snipped -- very droll>

Post by O. Sharp
A blurb that hasn't been removed from the web yet describes the plot,
beginning in the "22nd year of the reign of High King Elessar. Elanor
Gamgee Gardner, daughter of Samwise, is about to celebrate her debutante
party" - really? was the Shire really based on the antebellum South all
this time?

More likely the antebellum South got the custom from Merry Olde
England.

Indeed. The debs started in the time of Elizabeth I; they were last
presented at Court in 1958, and the last traditional deb's party was
in 1975. (Though I don't think debs hosted parties in Britain - they
went to them.)

I don't think they ever hosted them (I could be wrong) -- I think they
have always been hosted either by an organization or by the parents
(which may indeed be the same thing, under the hood, as it were) to
"present" their daughters into society.

It's my understanding that the very richest (and I suppose royalty)
would organize a private debut to be all about their own daughter,
while the next rung down among the richest would organize group
events and the organizers would decide who deserved to be at their
events.
It's similar to the royal/icing-on-the-uppercrust tradition of
educating children "privately" (as in engaging tutors specifically
to teach their own children) being the tiny pinnacle above those
sent to "public schools" of the Winchester/Eton/Harrow/etc. variety
where groups of children were educated "in public" but not among
or under the auspices of the general public.
There is nothing about Sam Gamgee that indicates he would be engaged
in opulent social ritual,even though another of his daughters married
the Thain.

Not /that/ opulent although, as ten-times Mayor, I would think his
social status was rather higher at the end of his life than at the
start of /LOTR/.

Seven times (served 1427-76 SR) but though being owner of Bag End
was a status achievement in itself,hobbits are not the type to
build ballrooms...their parties are of different (if sometimes
Unexpected) types.

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Louis Epstein

Post by Paul S Person
Or, from what you say above, to the current King or Queen in England.
Up to 1958, per the above, anyway.
They may even be related to (in the sense of inspiring) the Senior
Prom tradition in High School -- for hoi polloi, of course.
Then again, I may be confusing two or three different traditions here.

I am not sure who the presentation of a high school senior event
would be directed toward,it's more a matter of the school community
than becoming of age in the eyes of anyone external.

True, if it is related at all it is a lesser form than the real thing.
One of my Miss Manner's books (IIRC; it /could/ have been a column
enountered elsewhere) featured a letter from a mother asking her
opinion of something she and her friends were doing (or thinking of
since their children were all very busy professionals who didn't get
out much, they had (or were planning to) throw a series of parties for
them at which they could mix, match, and, God willing, marry suitable
persons and produce grandchildren
Miss Manners approved, pointing out that they were doing (or planning
to do) much the same thing as coming-out/presentation parties did.
Just less formally and without the fancy name.

The question is to what extent the name and formality
defined what it was.

Post by Paul S Person
This is the same Miss Manners who, in responding to a hostess who
wanted all her unmarried guests to be assigned separate bedrooms no
Assign them to separate bedrooms and expect them to retire to them and
to be in them the next morning -- but pay no attention at all the the
sound of footsteps in the night.

Post by Louis Epstein

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Paul S Person
And the Shire, of course, predated both.
<snipped>

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.