Why Did Círdan Send the Stone of Emyn Beraid Into the West?

[Bill O'Meally]

In a footnote in Appendix A, it is stated that Círdan placed the Stone
that was in the Tower on Emyn Beraid aboard Elrond's ship when he left.
In that the Palantíri were by right the possessions of the House of
Elendil, why would he do this? Granted, though it had been guarded by
the Elves and was unique in that it was not in communication with the
others and only looked West, Elendil had set it there in order to look
back with "'straight sight' and see Eressëa in the Vanished West". It
is never stated that he relinquished possession of the Stone. Should it
not have, as was the Orthanc Stone, been returned to Aragorn with the
remainder of his inheritance? I would imagine Arwen might have
occasionally enjoyed looking into it, if it was not too painful for
her, and possibly seeing Elrond.

[Fred Smith]

Post by Bill O'Meally
In a footnote in Appendix A, it is stated that Círdan placed the Stone
that was in the Tower on Emyn Beraid aboard Elrond's ship when he left.
In that the Palantíri were by right the possessions of the House of
Elendil, why would he do this?

Perhaps they needed it to see the path to get to Eressëa with a
mortal on board.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Bill O'Meally
In a footnote in Appendix A, it is stated that Círdan placed the Stone
that was in the Tower on Emyn Beraid aboard Elrond's ship when he left.
In that the Palantíri were by right the possessions of the House of
Elendil, why would he do this? Granted, though it had been guarded by
the Elves and was unique in that it was not in communication with the
others and only looked West, Elendil had set it there in order to look
back with "'straight sight' and see Eressëa in the Vanished West". It
is never stated that he relinquished possession of the Stone. Should it
not have, as was the Orthanc Stone, been returned to Aragorn with the
remainder of his inheritance? I would imagine Arwen might have
occasionally enjoyed looking into it, if it was not too painful for
her, and possibly seeing Elrond.

Maybe this was part of the fallout from the end of the Third Age and
the beginning of the Fourth, the Age of Men? During the War of the
Rings, various Elves had made remarks to the effect that the effort
to defeat Sauron was their last project in Middle-earth. The Orthanc-
stone could have been useful to Aragorn, but a stone that _only_
looked west would be no use at all, because no more help would come
from that direction.

(But I suspect really it's just Tolkien tidying up things on the last
voyage, and forgetting about the fact that the stone really belonged
to Aragorn.)

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Stan Brown
Maybe this was part of the fallout from the end of the Third Age and
the beginning of the Fourth, the Age of Men? During the War of the
Rings, various Elves had made remarks to the effect that the effort
to defeat Sauron was their last project in Middle-earth. The Orthanc-
stone could have been useful to Aragorn, but a stone that _only_
looked west would be no use at all, because no more help would come
from that direction.

But wouldn't a Stone that only looked West be even less useful if taken
into the place it was created to look at?

Post by Stan Brown
(But I suspect really it's just Tolkien tidying up things on the last
voyage, and forgetting about the fact that the stone really belonged
to Aragorn.)

My suspicion as well!

[Stan Brown]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Stan Brown
Maybe this was part of the fallout from the end of the Third Age and
the beginning of the Fourth, the Age of Men? During the War of the
Rings, various Elves had made remarks to the effect that the effort
to defeat Sauron was their last project in Middle-earth. The Orthanc-
stone could have been useful to Aragorn, but a stone that _only_
looked west would be no use at all, because no more help would come
from that direction.

But wouldn't a Stone that only looked West be even less useful if taken
into the place it was created to look at?

Come to think of it, was it already useless? In some sense, Aman and
Tol Eressëa were taken out of the round Earth at the end of the
Second Age. Could a Stone see them from Middle-earth?

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Stan Brown
(But I suspect really it's just Tolkien tidying up things on the last
voyage, and forgetting about the fact that the stone really belonged
to Aragorn.)

My suspicion as well!

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Stan Brown
Come to think of it, was it already useless? In some sense, Aman and
Tol Eressëa were taken out of the round Earth at the end of the
Second Age. Could a Stone see them from Middle-earth?

Very much so. Recall the hobbits' encounter with Gildor and company
after their encounter with the Black Rider in the Shire. Tolkien states
in _The Road Goes Ever On_ (pp 73-4) that the Elves were journeying
back to Rivendell throught The Shire after going to the Tower Hills to
look into the Stone for just such purpose.

"The High-Elves (such as did not dwell in or near the Havens) journeyed
to the Tower Hills at intervals to look afar at Eressëa (the Elvish
isle) and the Shores of Valinor, close to which it lay.... No doubt
Gildor and his companions (...),since they appear to have been going
eastward, were Elves living in or near Rivendell returning from the
palantír of the Tower Hills. On such visits they were sometimes
rewarded by a vision, clear but remote, of Elbereth, as a majestic
figure, shining white, standing upon the mountain Oiolosse...."

The same source reiterates that after the fall of Elendil (assuming
that to mean the *House* of Elendil), the High-Elves took back this
Stone into their own care. But again, as caretakers, should they not
have returned their charge to the rightful owner when that House was
restored? I mean, the care of the shards of Narsil were also taken up
by the High-Elves, but was reforged and returned to Aragorn when his
claim to kingship drew nigh.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Stan Brown
Come to think of it, was it already useless? In some sense, Aman and
Tol Eressëa were taken out of the round Earth at the end of the
Second Age. Could a Stone see them from Middle-earth?

Very much so. Recall the hobbits' encounter with Gildor and company
after their encounter with the Black Rider in the Shire. Tolkien states
in _The Road Goes Ever On_ (pp 73-4) that the Elves were journeying
back to Rivendell throught The Shire after going to the Tower Hills to
look into the Stone for just such purpose.

Thanks for that. "The Road Goes Ever" is not in my personal library.
/Unfinished Tales/ is, but it's been a crazy-busy week and I haven't
been able to make time to reread the Palantíri article in that book.

And I should have remembered that the Palantír could look across time
as well as space, as you (or someone else) pointed out in another
article. In LotR III 11, "The Palantír", Gandalf says to Pippin:

"Have I not felt it? Even now my heart desires to test my will upon
it, to see if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I
would--to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion
the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Fëanor at
their work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower!"

Post by Bill O'Meally
The same source reiterates that after the fall of Elendil (assuming
that to mean the *House* of Elendil), the High-Elves took back this
Stone into their own care. But again, as caretakers, should they not
have returned their charge to the rightful owner when that House was
restored? I mean, the care of the shards of Narsil were also taken up
by the High-Elves, but was reforged and returned to Aragorn when his
claim to kingship drew nigh.

Maybe the Elves figured they had plenty of swords, but only one
Westward-looking Palantír, and they just hopped Aragorn wouldn't ask
for it back? :-)

But seriously, it does seem a little tacky that they wouldn't give
back a gift that they had just been holding in safekeeping.

[Thomas Koenig]

Post by Stan Brown
And I should have remembered that the Palantír could look across time
as well as space, as you (or someone else) pointed out in another
"Have I not felt it? Even now my heart desires to test my will upon
it, to see if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I
would--to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion
the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Fëanor at
their work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower!"

So, why didn't Gandalf use the Stone of Emyn Beraid?

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Thomas Koenig
So, why didn't Gandalf use the Stone of Emyn Beraid?

We don't know that he never looked into it, but in that it is never
mentioned I suspect he did not. My guess is that first of all, the
palantíri weren't common knowledge, unless one was versed in the lore
of Númenor. We tend to think of Gandalf as always having being a
general loremaster, but in the essay "The Palantíri" it states that
Gandalf only started to take an interest in the lore of Gondor after
Bilbo found the Ring and Sauron's return to Mordor. That was when he
started to visit Minas Tirith to study its archives and learned much
about the palantíri, though he was focused on the lore of the Rings of
Power. Not to say he did not already know of the stones through his
alliance with Elrond. Secondly, by that time he likely had so much else
to keep him occupied that he never got around to it. Sort of like his
never getting to sit for a long chat with Bombadil until after the War.
When the Orthanc Stone was briefly in his possession, only then is
there the mention of his temptation to look into it, though he really
had no right to use it and quickly surrendered it to Aragorn.

[Michael Ikeda]

Post by Bill O'Meally
When the Orthanc Stone was briefly
in his possession, only then is there the mention of his
temptation to look into it, though he really had no right to use
it and quickly surrendered it to Aragorn.

Although it's more that Gandalf decided that using the stone himself
was unwise than it is about any lack of right to use it. Aragorn
would surely have given Gandalf permission to use the stone if
Gandalf had asked.

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Stan Brown
Maybe the Elves figured they had plenty of swords, but only one
Westward-looking Palantír, and they just hopped Aragorn wouldn't ask
for it back? :-)

Sorta, "Quick, let's stash it on Elrond's ship before anyone knows it's
missing!" :-)

Post by Stan Brown
But seriously, it does seem a little tacky that they wouldn't give
back a gift that they had just been holding in safekeeping.

And still, this wasn't the last ship of the Exiles. There may have been
plenty more in ME who might have wanted to make the pilgrimage to look
into the Stone, especially now that the roads would be safer.

[Louis Epstein]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Stan Brown
Maybe the Elves figured they had plenty of swords, but only one
Westward-looking Palant?r, and they just hopped Aragorn wouldn't ask
for it back? :-)

Sorta, "Quick, let's stash it on Elrond's ship before anyone knows it's
missing!" :-)

Post by Stan Brown
But seriously, it does seem a little tacky that they wouldn't give
back a gift that they had just been holding in safekeeping.

And still, this wasn't the last ship of the Exiles. There may have been
plenty more in ME who might have wanted to make the pilgrimage to look
into the Stone, especially now that the roads would be safer.

Celeborn is said to have been the last to remember the Elder Days in
Middle-Earth and he left some time during Aragorn's reign...I suppose
he could have used the stone to let his wife know he was coming...
but I want to dredge Anduin carefully and bring up the Stone of
Osgiliath!

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

[Bill O'Meally]

IDHTBIFOMATM, but I seem to recall that Elendil (or Gil Galad?)
would look into this stone to see Numenor (and/or Tol Eressa).
Maybe it only showed him these places as they were before the
world was changed.

They could apparently look across both time and space. In describing
the Palatíri to Pippin, Gandalf expresses his heart's desire to look
across the sea and time to Tirion and watch Fëanor at work.

Also, wasn't there some super dupa master stone
somewhere in the West (and I don't mean the one in Osgiliath)?
There's an essay somewhere on Palantiri that would probably tell.

You are referring to the essay _The Palantíri_ in _Unfinished Tales_. I
don't recall reading of any master stone in the West.

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Bill O'Meally

IDHTBIFOMATM, but I seem to recall that Elendil (or Gil Galad?)
would look into this stone to see Numenor (and/or Tol Eressa).
Maybe it only showed him these places as they were before the
world was changed.

They could apparently look across both time and space. In describing
the Palatíri to Pippin, Gandalf expresses his heart's desire to look
across the sea and time to Tirion and watch Fëanor at work.

Also, wasn't there some super dupa master stone
somewhere in the West (and I don't mean the one in Osgiliath)?
There's an essay somewhere on Palantiri that would probably tell.

You are referring to the essay _The Palantíri_ in _Unfinished Tales_. I
don't recall reading of any master stone in the West.

Ah, but you were right Fred. In footnote 16 in the essay, it mentions
the Master Stone on the Tower of Avallónë upon Eressëa. That appears to
be its only mention that I can see. Good call!

[Louis Epstein]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Bill O'Meally

IDHTBIFOMATM, but I seem to recall that Elendil (or Gil Galad?)
would look into this stone to see Numenor (and/or Tol Eressa).
Maybe it only showed him these places as they were before the
world was changed.

They could apparently look across both time and space. In describing
the Palat?ri to Pippin, Gandalf expresses his heart's desire to look
across the sea and time to Tirion and watch F?anor at work.

Also, wasn't there some super dupa master stone
somewhere in the West (and I don't mean the one in Osgiliath)?
There's an essay somewhere on Palantiri that would probably tell.

You are referring to the essay _The Palant?ri_ in _Unfinished Tales_. I
don't recall reading of any master stone in the West.

Ah, but you were right Fred. In footnote 16 in the essay, it mentions
the Master Stone on the Tower of Avall?n? upon Eress?a. That appears to
be its only mention that I can see. Good call!

(to some extent this contradicts the significance given
to the Stone of Osgiliath).

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.