Norman Conquest and Tolkien

[tony]

I remember hearing or reading that Tolkien bemoaned the loss of England’s
unique mythology which he believed was wiped out or very nearly wiped out
due to the Norman Conquest of 1066. Is this an accurate description of
Tolkien’s views? I couldn’t find a reference to this in the Letters of JRR
Tolkien, although I did find this quote on the internet:

From The JRR Tolkien Companion and Guide by C Scull & WG Hammond, page 251:

"Tolkien's antagonism to France, the French and the French language was due,
in large part, to his regret that English culture was dislocated and nearly
destroyed following the conquest of England by French-speaking Normans in
1066."

[Stan Brown]

Post by tony
I remember hearing or reading that Tolkien bemoaned the loss of England’s
unique mythology which he believed was wiped out or very nearly wiped out
due to the Norman Conquest of 1066. Is this an accurate description of
Tolkien’s views? I couldn’t find a reference to this in the Letters of JRR
Tolkien,

You're not missing something. I have an electronic copy.(*) The word
"Norman" does not occur in /Letters/, other than in the proper names
Norman Shelley and Norman Davis.

(*) Typed by me, quite a few years ago, because I was tired of
flipping pages to search for things.

[Lewis]

Post by tony
I remember hearing or reading that Tolkien bemoaned the loss of England’s
unique mythology which he believed was wiped out or very nearly wiped out
due to the Norman Conquest of 1066. Is this an accurate description of
Tolkien’s views? I couldn’t find a reference to this in the Letters of JRR

I don't think it was only the Norman conquest, though that would be the
beginning of the end, certainly. The history of England from 1066 to
about 1500 (ish) or so can be seen as a rotation from a Scandinavian
influenced country to a French influenced country.

Before the Normans Britain was largely influence and focused eastward,
across the North Sea.

[Steve Morrison]

Post by tony
I remember hearing or reading that Tolkien bemoaned the loss of
England’s unique mythology which he believed was wiped out or very
nearly wiped out due to the Norman Conquest of 1066. Is this an
accurate description of Tolkien’s views? I couldn’t find a reference to
this in the Letters of JRR Tolkien, although I did find this quote on
"Tolkien's antagonism to France, the French and the French language was
due, in large part, to his regret that English culture was dislocated
and nearly destroyed following the conquest of England by
French-speaking Normans in 1066."

IDHTBIFOM, but the Carpenter biography mentions Tolkien, as a student,
having spoken in favor of a motion that "this house deplores the
occurrence of the Norman conquest", and remarks that the motion was
probably his own. (I /think/ it was the Carpenter bio; but it's been
years since I last read it.)

[John W Kennedy]

Post by Steve Morrison

Post by tony
I remember hearing or reading that Tolkien bemoaned the loss of
England’s unique mythology which he believed was wiped out or very
nearly wiped out due to the Norman Conquest of 1066. Is this an
accurate description of Tolkien’s views? I couldn’t find a reference to
this in the Letters of JRR Tolkien, although I did find this quote on
"Tolkien's antagonism to France, the French and the French language was
due, in large part, to his regret that English culture was dislocated
and nearly destroyed following the conquest of England by
French-speaking Normans in 1066."

IDHTBIFOM, but the Carpenter biography mentions Tolkien, as a student,
having spoken in favor of a motion that "this house deplores the
occurrence of the Norman conquest", and remarks that the motion was
probably his own. (I /think/ it was the Carpenter bio; but it's been
years since I last read it.)

Well, in the October 14, 1966 number of the New York Times (the NEW
YORK Times), there were no fewer than five In-Memoriam items for Harold
Godwinson, so I wouldn’t assume Tolkien’s authorship without solid
evidence.

[Steve Morrison]

Post by Steve Morrison

Post by tony
I remember hearing or reading that Tolkien bemoaned the loss of
England’s unique mythology which he believed was wiped out or very
nearly wiped out due to the Norman Conquest of 1066. Is this an
accurate description of Tolkien’s views? I couldn’t find a reference
to this in the Letters of JRR Tolkien, although I did find this quote
"Tolkien's antagonism to France, the French and the French language was
due, in large part, to his regret that English culture was dislocated
and nearly destroyed following the conquest of England by
French-speaking Normans in 1066."

IDHTBIFOM, but the Carpenter biography mentions Tolkien, as a student,
having spoken in favor of a motion that "this house deplores the
occurrence of the Norman conquest", and remarks that the motion was
probably his own. (I /think/ it was the Carpenter bio; but it's been
years since I last read it.)

Aha! I found the information in the /Companion and Guide/. On p. 464
of the /Guide/, I found:

[...]he also resented the impact on Old English of the French
spoken by the Normans who conquered England in 1066. On 4
November 1910 he spoke at a meeting of the King Edward's School
Debating Society on the motion: 'This House deplores the
occurrence of the Norman Conquest'. In the /King Edward's
School Chronicle/ it was reported that Tolkien in his speech
attempted 'to return to something of Saxon purity of diction
("right English goodliness of speechcraft"?) deplored before "the
worshipful fellows of the speechguild," the influx of
polysyllabic barbarities which ousted the more honest if humbler
native words'

The article goes on to give more quotes in the same vein showing that
Tolkien kept this attitude in later life. (I also verified the quote
above from p. 251.)

[Stan Brown]

Post by Steve Morrison
In the /King Edward's
School Chronicle/ it was reported that Tolkien in his speech
attempted 'to return to something of Saxon purity of diction
("right English goodliness of speechcraft"?) deplored before "the
worshipful fellows of the speechguild," the influx of
polysyllabic barbarities which ousted the more honest if humbler
native words'

You might like to read /The Wheels of If/, by L. Sprague de Camp.
(That is, if you haven't already.) The hero is shifted into an
alternative reality in which King (?)Oswiu decided the other way at
Whitby, and as a result the Normans never conquered England.

One of the delights of the novella, for me, is the language: without
that admixture of French, English is recognizable but ... odd. So
things are weighty, not important; a motion is twothed, not seconded;
people are withdoing, not coöperative.

(De Camp must have been quite a linguist. In /Lest Darkness Fall/, he
puts his hero, a modern archaeologist, into Rome in the 530s. The
language was still written as Latin, but much of the pronunciation
had shifted towards Italian. I'm no expert, but the way he talked
about the languages, and used them in his story, has the ring of
truth.)

[Lewis]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Steve Morrison
In the /King Edward's
School Chronicle/ it was reported that Tolkien in his speech
attempted 'to return to something of Saxon purity of diction
("right English goodliness of speechcraft"?) deplored before "the
worshipful fellows of the speechguild," the influx of
polysyllabic barbarities which ousted the more honest if humbler
native words'

You might like to read /The Wheels of If/, by L. Sprague de Camp.
(That is, if you haven't already.) The hero is shifted into an
alternative reality in which King (?)Oswiu decided the other way at
Whitby, and as a result the Normans never conquered England.
One of the delights of the novella, for me, is the language: without
that admixture of French, English is recognizable but ... odd. So
things are weighty, not important; a motion is twothed, not seconded;
people are withdoing, not coöperative.

As I understand it most of the French linguistic influence over English
happened much later than 1066. Hundreds of years later.

[John W Kennedy]

Post by Lewis

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Steve Morrison
In the /King Edward's
School Chronicle/ it was reported that Tolkien in his speech
attempted 'to return to something of Saxon purity of diction
("right English goodliness of speechcraft"?) deplored before "the
worshipful fellows of the speechguild," the influx of
polysyllabic barbarities which ousted the more honest if humbler
native words'

You might like to read /The Wheels of If/, by L. Sprague de Camp.
(That is, if you haven't already.) The hero is shifted into an
alternative reality in which King (?)Oswiu decided the other way at
Whitby, and as a result the Normans never conquered England.
One of the delights of the novella, for me, is the language: without
that admixture of French, English is recognizable but ... odd. So
things are weighty, not important; a motion is twothed, not seconded;
people are withdoing, not coöperative.

As I understand it most of the French linguistic influence over English
happened much later than 1066. Hundreds of years later.

Yes, but most of it was a direct result of 1066 and the bilingual
society that resulted until the middle Plantagenets found it expedient
to drum up English patriotic fervor. Heavens! Haven't you read
"Ivanhoe"?

[Wayne Brown]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Steve Morrison
In the /King Edward's
School Chronicle/ it was reported that Tolkien in his speech
attempted 'to return to something of Saxon purity of diction
("right English goodliness of speechcraft"?) deplored before "the
worshipful fellows of the speechguild," the influx of
polysyllabic barbarities which ousted the more honest if humbler
native words'

You might like to read /The Wheels of If/, by L. Sprague de Camp.
(That is, if you haven't already.) The hero is shifted into an
alternative reality in which King (?)Oswiu decided the other way at
Whitby, and as a result the Normans never conquered England.
One of the delights of the novella, for me, is the language: without
that admixture of French, English is recognizable but ... odd. So
things are weighty, not important; a motion is twothed, not seconded;
people are withdoing, not coöperative.
(De Camp must have been quite a linguist. In /Lest Darkness Fall/, he
puts his hero, a modern archaeologist, into Rome in the 530s. The
language was still written as Latin, but much of the pronunciation
had shifted towards Italian. I'm no expert, but the way he talked
about the languages, and used them in his story, has the ring of
truth.)

Another clever piece is "Uncleftish Beholding" by Poul Anderson. It's
a short article on atomic theory written as through the Norman Conquest
never happened and using native English vocabulary. Thus atoms are
"unclefts," elements are "firststuffs", particles are "motes," physics
is "worldken" and so forth. Here's the first sentence: "For most of
its being, mankind did not know what things are made of, but could
only guess. With the growth of worldken, we began to learn, and today
we have a beholding of stuff and work that watching bears out, both
in the workstead and in daily life."

The full text can be found at:
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=alt.language.artificial/ZL4e3fD7eW0/_7p8bKwLJWkJ

[JimboCat]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Steve Morrison
In the /King Edward's
School Chronicle/ it was reported that Tolkien in his speech
attempted 'to return to something of Saxon purity of diction
("right English goodliness of speechcraft"?) deplored before "the
worshipful fellows of the speechguild," the influx of
polysyllabic barbarities which ousted the more honest if humbler
native words'

You might like to read /The Wheels of If/, by L. Sprague de Camp.
(That is, if you haven't already.) The hero is shifted into an
alternative reality in which King (?)Oswiu decided the other way at
Whitby, and as a result the Normans never conquered England.
One of the delights of the novella, for me, is the language: without
that admixture of French, English is recognizable but ... odd. So
things are weighty, not important; a motion is twothed, not seconded;
people are withdoing, not coöperative.
(De Camp must have been quite a linguist. In /Lest Darkness Fall/, he
puts his hero, a modern archaeologist, into Rome in the 530s. The
language was still written as Latin, but much of the pronunciation
had shifted towards Italian. I'm no expert, but the way he talked
about the languages, and used them in his story, has the ring of
truth.)

This spirit lives on in an internet kook known as "Autymn D.C.". I kept this quote from him/her in my .sig file for years, even though it was too long for a good .sig

"English (not EInglish or your muttish) is the one
true speakship--it foretold special relativity: <http://dictionary.com/
browse/fleet>; atomic theory: <http://dictionary.com/browse/mote>;
quantal theory: <http://dictionary.com/browse/whit>; wave theory:
<http://dictionary.com/browse/shimmer>; lasing: <http://dictionary.com/
browse/glimmer>; coronæ and nebulæ: <http://dictionary.com/browse/
welkin>; orbits and orbitals: <http://dictionary.com/browse/trend>;
molecula: <http://dictionary.com/browse/speck>."

"The one true speakship" - gotta love that phrase, (even as you deplore the jingoist sentiment).

JimboCat

[Wayne Brown]

Post by Steve Morrison

Post by Steve Morrison

Post by tony
I remember hearing or reading that Tolkien bemoaned the loss of
England’s unique mythology which he believed was wiped out or very
nearly wiped out due to the Norman Conquest of 1066. Is this an
accurate description of Tolkien’s views? I couldn’t find a reference
to this in the Letters of JRR Tolkien, although I did find this quote
"Tolkien's antagonism to France, the French and the French language was
due, in large part, to his regret that English culture was dislocated
and nearly destroyed following the conquest of England by
French-speaking Normans in 1066."

IDHTBIFOM, but the Carpenter biography mentions Tolkien, as a student,
having spoken in favor of a motion that "this house deplores the
occurrence of the Norman conquest", and remarks that the motion was
probably his own. (I /think/ it was the Carpenter bio; but it's been
years since I last read it.)

Aha! I found the information in the /Companion and Guide/. On p. 464
[...]he also resented the impact on Old English of the French
spoken by the Normans who conquered England in 1066. On 4
November 1910 he spoke at a meeting of the King Edward's School
Debating Society on the motion: 'This House deplores the
occurrence of the Norman Conquest'. In the /King Edward's
School Chronicle/ it was reported that Tolkien in his speech
attempted 'to return to something of Saxon purity of diction
("right English goodliness of speechcraft"?) deplored before "the
worshipful fellows of the speechguild," the influx of
polysyllabic barbarities which ousted the more honest if humbler
native words'
The article goes on to give more quotes in the same vein showing that
Tolkien kept this attitude in later life. (I also verified the quote
above from p. 251.)

He wasn't the only one to feel that way. I've met quite a
few Englishmen who would agree. "Ða Engliscan Gesiðas"
("The English Companions") is a group dedicated to the study
and preservation of Anglo-Saxon language, culture and history.
The organization was founded in 1966 as part of a protest against
national celebrations of the 900th anniversary of the Battle of
Hastings and the Norman Conquest. They can be found today at:
http://www.tha-engliscan-gesithas.org.uk/

[Stan Brown]

Post by Steve Morrison
IDHTBIFOM, but the Carpenter biography mentions Tolkien, as a student,
having spoken in favor of a motion that "this house deplores the
occurrence of the Norman conquest", and remarks that the motion was
probably his own. (I /think/ it was the Carpenter bio; but it's been
years since I last read it.)

Even if he did propose it, that doesn't mean it necessarily reflected
his own views. He could have proposed it (if he did) just because he
thought it would make an interesting topic for debate.