Gafferisms (Sayings of Hamfast Gamgee)

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Samwise son of Hamfast, otherwise known as Sam Gamgee, is well-known
(within the pages of LotR) for reciting old sayings learnt from his
father (Hamfast Gamgee or simply the Gaffer). I first began to take note
of these in a recent Chapter of the Week discussion, and made a vague
threat to try and list some of them. Well, here they are:

"Elves and Dragons. Cabbages and potatoes are better for me and you. Don
't go getting mixed up in the business of your betters, or you'll land
in trouble too big for you..." (Hamfast telling others what he told Sam,
A Long-Expected Party)

"[Sam] breathed with relief when he was safely across. 'Live and learn!
as my gaffer used to say. Though he was thinking of gardening, not of
roosting like a bird, nor of trying to walk like a spider. Not even my
uncle Andy ever did a trick like that!'" (Sam crossing the rope bridge,
Lothlorien)

"It's the job that's never started as takes longest to finish, as my old
gaffer used to say." (Sam on leaving Lorien, The Mirror of Galadriel)

"'Rope!' cried Sam, talking wildly to himself in his excitement and
relief. 'Well, if I don't deserve to be hung on the end of one as a
warning to numbskulls! You're nowt but a ninnyhammer, Sam Gamgee: that's
what the Gaffer said to me often enough, it being a word of his. Rope!'"
(Sam remembering he has a rope, The Taming of Smeagol)

"'Ninnyhammers!' he said. 'Noodles! My beautiful rope! There it is tied
to a stump, and we're at the bottom.'" (Sam about to be surprised by a
rope, The Taming of Smeagol)

"I do know something about rope and about knots. It's in the family, as
you might say. Why, my grand-dad, and my uncle Andy after him, him that
was the Gaffer's eldest brother, he had a rope-walk over by Tighfield
many a year. And I put as fast a hitch over the stump as any one could
have done, in the Shire or out of it." (Sam trying to explain why the
rope shouldn't have come loose, The Taming of Smeagol)

"Various reproachful names for himself came to Sam's mind, drawn from
the Gaffer's large paternal word-hoard..." (Sam realising that he fell
asleep and left him and Frodo unguarded against Gollum, The Passage of
the Marshes)

"Don't think of any of your Gaffer's hard names..." (Frodo trying to
reassure Sam about his falling asleep and not keeping watch, The Passage
of the Marshes)

"My word, but the Gaffer would have a thing or two to say, if he saw me
now! Often said I'd come to a bad end, if I didn't watch my step, he
did. But now I don't suppose I'll ever see the old fellow again. He'll
miss his chance of I told'ee so, Sam: more's the pity. He could go on
telling me as long as he'd got breath, if only I could see his old face
again." (Sam upon seeing the Black Gate, The Black Gate is Closed)

"'Po-ta-toes,' said Sam. 'The Gaffer's delight, and rare good ballast
for an empty belly.'" (Sam speaking to Gollum, Of Herbs and Stewed
Rabbits)

"'Save me! ' said Sam turning white, and then flushing scarlet. 'There I
go again! When ever you open your big mouth you put your foot in it the
Gaffer used to say to me, and right enough.'" (Sam after being
indiscreet in front of Faramir, The Window on the West)

"You've spoken very handsome all along, put me off my guard, talking of
Elves and all. But handsome is as handsome does we say. Now's a chance
to show your quality." (Sam lecturing Faramir, The Window on the West)

"...where there's life there's hope, as my Gaffer used to say; and need
of vittles, as he mostways used to add." (Sam speaking to Frodo to raise
his hopes and get him to eat, Journey to the Crossroads)

"Well, I was born lucky, whatever my gaffer may say. There's another
wish come true!" (Sam speaking about Bill [the Pony], Homeward Bound)

"It's an ill wind as blows nobody no good, as I always say. And All's
well as ends Better!" (Hamfast Gamgee's verdict on being restored to
Bagshot Row after the Scouring of the Shire, The Grey Havens)

"Make it short, and then you won't have to cut it short before you can
use it." (Hamfast Gamgee's advice to Sam on naming babies, The Grey
Havens)

I think all these sayings give a nice insight into the character of
Hamfast Gamgee, and also into his son, Samwise Gamgee. The one I like
best is the one from when they are in front of the Black Gate. That one
is quite sombre, but mostly these moments of the story are lighter and
sometimes humorous. The best piece of advice, IMO, is the one about a
job that's never started!

Christopher

[Taemon]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"'Rope!' cried Sam, talking wildly to himself in his
excitement and relief. 'Well, if I don't deserve to be
hung on the end of one as a warning to numbskulls! You're
nowt but a ninnyhammer, Sam Gamgee: that's what the
Gaffer said to me often enough, it being a word of his.
Rope!'" (Sam remembering he has a rope, The Taming of
Smeagol)

I'm currently reading a book in which the word "ninehammer" pops
up now and then ("Quicksilver, Neal Stephenson). Anyone know more
about it?

T.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Taemon

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"'Rope!' cried Sam, talking wildly to himself in his
excitement and relief. 'Well, if I don't deserve to be
hung on the end of one as a warning to numbskulls! You're
nowt but a ninnyhammer, Sam Gamgee: that's what the
Gaffer said to me often enough, it being a word of his.
Rope!'" (Sam remembering he has a rope, The Taming of
Smeagol)

I'm currently reading a book in which the word "ninehammer" pops
up now and then ("Quicksilver, Neal Stephenson). Anyone know more
about it?

Onelook is a terrific dictionary resource.

Try http://www.onelook.com/?ls=a&w=ninehammer

It asks "did you mean ninnyhammer?" and finds that word in six
dictionaries. Unfortunately, none of the six happens to give a
derivation, though two do say "-Addison".

[Taemon]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Taemon
I'm currently reading a book in which the word
"ninehammer" pops up now and then ("Quicksilver, Neal
Stephenson). Anyone know more about it?

I found this quote, by the way:
<quote>
Quicksilver - The first book of Neil Stephenson's Baroque Cycle,
which threatens to be 3000 pages when it's all done. This book is
nearly 1000 on its own, but reads along at a brisk pace and keeps
you wanting more. Connected more than a little to the spectacular
Cryptonomicon, this book is set (mostly) in the mid to late 1600s
and deals with the scientific, social, and political revolutions
of that era, as observed by the Waterhouses and Shaftoes of this
earlier era. Newton and Liebniz create calculus while we watch
(and, as he managed to make modular arithmatic and cryptanalysis
approachable in Cryptonomicon, Stephenson manages to summarize
the essential nature and usefulness of this discovery so anyone
can follow it), the crowns of Europe strugle for dominance while
we watch, and more than a few surprises are slipped in. There are
a few anacronisms (some quite humorous, others annoying), a few
odd affectations (particularly in spelling certain words... why
fancied should be phant'sied while other words that have changed
since the 17th century are unaffected I don't know... and I don't
think ninnyhammer was ever spelled "ninehammer"), and a very
incomplete tale... But I'm very much looking forward to the next
~1000 pages (The Confusion) come April!
<\quote>

Apart from that, Google only showed up "Ninehammer" as a name.

Post by Stan Brown
Onelook is a terrific dictionary resource.
Try http://www.onelook.com/?ls=a&w=ninehammer
It asks "did you mean ninnyhammer?" and finds that word
in six dictionaries.

I used a Dutch Google, that asked "Did you mean niethammer",
which means absolutely nothing to me :-)

Post by Stan Brown
Unfortunately, none of the six
happens to give a derivation, though two do say
"-Addison".

Let's see what the brilliant translator of Lord of the Rings made
of it.

"'Domkoppen,' zei hij. Gossiepietje. Mijn mooie touw."

Heh :-) "Domkoppen" is fools. Methinks it should have been
"Domkop". "Gossiepietje" is very old and silly. I think it might
be translated as "golly", or something. Gossiepietje. Ha :-)
But, better than "macaroni", I guess.

T.

[Dirk Thierbach]

Post by Taemon
I used a Dutch Google, that asked "Did you mean niethammer",
which means absolutely nothing to me :-)

"Niethammer" is german for "riveting hammer".

Post by Taemon
Let's see what the brilliant translator of Lord of the Rings made
of it.
"'Domkoppen,' zei hij. Gossiepietje. Mijn mooie touw."

The german translation (the old one by Carroux, which is usually very
good) has

'Tölpel!' sagte er. 'Dummköpfe! Mein schönes Seil!'

"Tölpel" also means "fool(s)" (singular and plural are identical),
but more like someone who cannot coordinate his movements properly,
not like someone who is "stupid in the head".

Post by Taemon
Heh :-) "Domkoppen" is fools. Methinks it should have been
"Domkop". "Gossiepietje" is very old and silly.

Is it made up out of two words?

- Dirk

[Taemon]

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Taemon
I used a Dutch Google, that asked "Did you mean
niethammer", which means absolutely nothing to me :-)

"Niethammer" is german for "riveting hammer".

Ah. One wonders why Google.nl deemed it fit to inform me on that
matter.

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Taemon
Let's see what the brilliant translator of Lord of the
Rings made of it.
"'Domkoppen,' zei hij. Gossiepietje. Mijn mooie touw."

The german translation (the old one by Carroux, which is
usually very good) has
'Tölpel!' sagte er. 'Dummköpfe! Mein schönes Seil!'

With the exclamation marks?

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Taemon
Heh :-) "Domkoppen" is fools. Methinks it should have
been "Domkop". "Gossiepietje" is very old and silly.

Is it made up out of two words?

Not that I know. I think it's one of those made-up curses, used
by those who don't want to use His name in vain.

T.

[Dirk Thierbach]

Post by Taemon

Post by Dirk Thierbach
"Niethammer" is german for "riveting hammer".

Ah. One wonders why Google.nl deemed it fit to inform me on that
matter.

Yes :-) But Google.de sometimes also offers me spelling variants
that look strange (they might be Dutch, but I didn't check, and I
don't remember details). OTOH, northern german dialect and Dutch are
sometimes similar enough, so maybe it's a feature :-)

Post by Taemon

Post by Dirk Thierbach
'Tölpel!' sagte er. 'Dummköpfe! Mein schönes Seil!'

With the exclamation marks?

Yes. It looks more natural this way. Different writing traditions, I guess.

Post by Taemon

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Taemon
Heh :-) "Domkoppen" is fools. Methinks it should have
been "Domkop". "Gossiepietje" is very old and silly.

Is it made up out of two words?

Not that I know. I think it's one of those made-up curses, used
by those who don't want to use His name in vain.

Ah. I can only interpret Dutch by association (which is sometimes
completely wrong, and sometimes works, but is fun in any case), and it
looked vaguely similar to "Gosse" (dirty small street) and then either
a name, or something with "feet", or maybe even something related to
"stone". But I guess then that's complete nonsense :-)

- Dirk

[Taemon]

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Taemon

Post by Dirk Thierbach
"Niethammer" is german for "riveting hammer".

Ah. One wonders why Google.nl deemed it fit to inform
me on that matter.

Yes :-) But Google.de sometimes also offers me spelling
variants that look strange (they might be Dutch, but I didn't
check, and I don't remember details).

Tell me next time!

Post by Dirk Thierbach
OTOH, northern german dialect
and Dutch are sometimes similar enough, so maybe it's a
feature :-)

Heh. Maybe it's Fries.

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Taemon

Post by Dirk Thierbach
'Tölpel!' sagte er. 'Dummköpfe! Mein schönes Seil!'

With the exclamation marks?

Yes. It looks more natural this way. Different writing
traditions, I guess.

It does look more natural. I thought the original was without the
exclamation marks, but I was mistaken.

<gossiepietje>

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Taemon
I think it's one of those made-up
curses, used by those who don't want to use His name in
vain.

Ah. I can only interpret Dutch by association (which is
sometimes completely wrong, and sometimes works, but is
fun in any case), and it looked vaguely similar to
"Gosse" (dirty small street) and then either
a name, or something with "feet", or maybe even something
related to "stone". But I guess then that's complete
nonsense :-)

Yes :-) But I have no idea where it comes from. Try
"blikskaters"! :-)

Gossiepietje. Heh. <giggles>

T.

[Paul S. Person]

Post by Taemon

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Taemon

Post by Dirk Thierbach
"Niethammer" is german for "riveting hammer".

Ah. One wonders why Google.nl deemed it fit to inform
me on that matter.

Yes :-) But Google.de sometimes also offers me spelling
variants that look strange (they might be Dutch, but I didn't
check, and I don't remember details).

Tell me next time!

Post by Dirk Thierbach
OTOH, northern german dialect
and Dutch are sometimes similar enough, so maybe it's a
feature :-)

Heh. Maybe it's Fries.

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Taemon

Post by Dirk Thierbach
'Tölpel!' sagte er. 'Dummköpfe! Mein schönes Seil!'

With the exclamation marks?

Yes. It looks more natural this way. Different writing
traditions, I guess.

It does look more natural. I thought the original was without the
exclamation marks, but I was mistaken.
<gossiepietje>

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Taemon
I think it's one of those made-up
curses, used by those who don't want to use His name in
vain.

Ah. I can only interpret Dutch by association (which is
sometimes completely wrong, and sometimes works, but is
fun in any case), and it looked vaguely similar to
"Gosse" (dirty small street) and then either
a name, or something with "feet", or maybe even something
related to "stone". But I guess then that's complete
nonsense :-)

Yes :-) But I have no idea where it comes from. Try
"blikskaters"! :-)
Gossiepietje. Heh. <giggles>

Huh. In the absence of all this information my completely uninformed
guess would have been ... Peter the Goose. Where "goose" means "fool".
Sort of like the "Simple Hans" character in German folk tales.

But that would require that "gossie" is related to "goose", "pietje"
to "Peter" -- and that geese are considered to be not very bright in
The Netherlands.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Samwise son of Hamfast, otherwise known as Sam Gamgee, is well-known
(within the pages of LotR) for reciting old sayings learnt from his
father (Hamfast Gamgee or simply the Gaffer).
"It's the job that's never started as takes longest to finish, as my old
gaffer used to say." (Sam on leaving Lorien, The Mirror of Galadriel)

Was this one composed for LotR It has the sound of an old saying,
though it's completely applicable today. When I read it in LotR, I
assumed Tolkien was quoting, perhaps in modified form (as he did
with Frodo's song at the Prancing Pony). But now I wonder: did
Tolkien invent this?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"You've spoken very handsome all along, put me off my guard, talking of
Elves and all. But handsome is as handsome does we say. Now's a chance
to show your quality." (Sam lecturing Faramir, The Window on the West)

I'm certain "handsome is as handsome does" did not originate with
Tolkien.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"...where there's life there's hope, as my Gaffer used to say; and need
of vittles, as he mostways used to add." (Sam speaking to Frodo to raise
his hopes and get him to eat, Journey to the Crossroads)

"Where there's life there's hope" is not Tolkien's, but I very much
like how he has adapted it with the earthy addition of the Gaffer.

[John Jones]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Samwise son of Hamfast, otherwise known as Sam Gamgee, is well-known
(within the pages of LotR) for reciting old sayings learnt from his
father (Hamfast Gamgee or simply the Gaffer).
"It's the job that's never started as takes longest to finish, as my old
gaffer used to say." (Sam on leaving Lorien, The Mirror of Galadriel)

Was this one composed for LotR It has the sound of an old saying,
though it's completely applicable today. When I read it in LotR, I
assumed Tolkien was quoting, perhaps in modified form (as he did
with Frodo's song at the Prancing Pony). But now I wonder: did
Tolkien invent this?

'It is not the starting of a thing that delivereth true glory, but the
continuing until the end' (IIRC); Drake. The Gaffer's aphorism is a
proverb, I think.

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"You've spoken very handsome all along, put me off my guard, talking of
Elves and all. But handsome is as handsome does we say. Now's a chance
to show your quality." (Sam lecturing Faramir, The Window on the West)

I'm certain "handsome is as handsome does" did not originate with
Tolkien.

Isn't it in Shakespeare? It's certainly another proverbial saying.

[Dirk Thierbach]

Post by Stan Brown
Was this one composed for LotR It has the sound of an old saying,
though it's completely applicable today. When I read it in LotR, I
assumed Tolkien was quoting, perhaps in modified form (as he did
with Frodo's song at the Prancing Pony). But now I wonder: did
Tolkien invent this?

Shippey observes somewhere in "The Road to Middle Earth" that Tolkien
quite often expresses a modern worldview in the form of (often
invented) archaic sounding proverbs. So it's quite possible Tolkien
made this one up.

- Dirk

[Brian E. Clark]

Post by Stan Brown
Was this one composed for LotR It has the sound of an old saying,
though it's completely applicable today.

It reminds me much of, "A journey of a thousand miles begins
with a single step."

Brian

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"'Ninnyhammers!' he said. 'Noodles! My beautiful rope! There it is
tied to a stump, and we're at the bottom.'" (Sam about to be
surprised by a rope, The Taming of Smeagol)

Ninnyhammers is being discussed in another thread (it means fool), but
what on Earth does "Noodles!" mean? I've ferreted around various
dictionaries and learnt that as well as being a pasta-like food, noodle
can also refer to the human head. It might be a short leap from here to
infer a meaning that implies "bad thinking" or "foolish thinking". In
other words, Sam is once again berating himself for being a fool.

Christopher

[Stan Brown]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"'Ninnyhammers!' he said. 'Noodles! My beautiful rope! There it is
tied to a stump, and we're at the bottom.'" (Sam about to be
surprised by a rope, The Taming of Smeagol)

Ninnyhammers is being discussed in another thread (it means fool), but
what on Earth does "Noodles!" mean? I've ferreted around various
dictionaries and learnt that as well as being a pasta-like food, noodle
can also refer to the human head. It might be a short leap from here to
infer a meaning that implies "bad thinking" or "foolish thinking". In
other words, Sam is once again berating himself for being a fool.

Yup!

Note the alliteration: ninnyhammers! noodles!

[Larry Swain]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"'Ninnyhammers!' he said. 'Noodles! My beautiful rope! There it is
tied to a stump, and we're at the bottom.'" (Sam about to be
surprised by a rope, The Taming of Smeagol)

Ninnyhammers is being discussed in another thread (it means fool), but
what on Earth does "Noodles!" mean? I've ferreted around various
dictionaries and learnt that as well as being a pasta-like food, noodle
can also refer to the human head. It might be a short leap from here to
infer a meaning that implies "bad thinking" or "foolish thinking". In
other words, Sam is once again berating himself for being a fool.

Noodles here is a synonym for Ninnyhammer--fool, stupid person.
It comes from slightly later, 18th rather than 16th, century.
The etymology is uncertain, but is probably a development from
Noddle-the back of the head, the head, but also a "stupid
person" from about 1700. Noddle as a word for stupid person and
also a bit later for the head ('the ol' noodle') appear less
than a half century later, so the similarity in semantic fields
and pronunciation suggest a rather strong connection.

Noodle as in pasta probably enters English also in the late
1700s, but is probably a mispronunciation of German knudel with
a an umlaut over that u, and a weakening of the initial "k".

[Dirk Thierbach]

Post by Larry Swain
Noodle as in pasta probably enters English also in the late
1700s, but is probably a mispronunciation of German knudel with
a an umlaut over that u, and a weakening of the initial "k".

Actually its an o with umlaut, i.e. "Knödel" ("flour dumpling"). "Knüdel"
doesn't exist, though "Nüdeli", as a southern dialect form of "Nudel", does.
My etymological dictionary says it might also come from the noun "Knuddel"
(something pressed tightly together; probably related to "to cuddle").

- Dirk

[Seymour C. Moore]

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Larry Swain
Noodle as in pasta probably enters English also in the late
1700s, but is probably a mispronunciation of German knudel with
a an umlaut over that u, and a weakening of the initial "k".

Actually its an o with umlaut, i.e. "Knödel" ("flour dumpling").
"Knüdel" doesn't exist, though "Nüdeli", as a southern dialect form of
"Nudel", does. My etymological dictionary says it might also come from
the noun "Knuddel" (something pressed tightly together; probably
related to "to cuddle").

Hmm...I wonder if the Norwegian verb "knulle" (fuck) comes from that
word...


C

[Larry Swain]

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Larry Swain
Noodle as in pasta probably enters English also in the late
1700s, but is probably a mispronunciation of German knudel with
a an umlaut over that u, and a weakening of the initial "k".

Actually its an o with umlaut, i.e. "Knödel" ("flour dumpling"). "Knüdel"
doesn't exist, though "Nüdeli", as a southern dialect form of "Nudel", does.
My etymological dictionary says it might also come from the noun "Knuddel"
(something pressed tightly together; probably related to "to cuddle").
- Dirk

Well, yes and no actually. First, I got confused: there should
be no "k" in my Nudel! I got confused between Nudel and
knodel. English "noodle" as in pasta likely comes from Nudel,
not knodel, though they are related. Nudel is likely a
Germanization of the Latin minutulus--very small, thought to
refer to small bits of dough in soup. Sorry for the confusion!

[Dirk Thierbach]

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Larry Swain
Noodle as in pasta probably enters English also in the late
1700s, but is probably a mispronunciation of German knudel with
a an umlaut over that u, and a weakening of the initial "k".

Actually its an o with umlaut, i.e. "Knödel" ("flour dumpling"). "Knüdel"
doesn't exist, though "Nüdeli", as a southern dialect form of "Nudel",
does. My etymological dictionary says it might also come from the noun
"Knuddel" (something pressed tightly together; probably related to "to
cuddle").

Well, yes and no actually. First, I got confused: there should
be no "k" in my Nudel! I got confused between Nudel and
knodel. English "noodle" as in pasta likely comes from Nudel,
not knodel, though they are related.

But German Nudel comes from Knödel (or Knuddel, etc.), according to
my etymologogical dictionary. (And "Nudel" and "noodle" are of course
the same word, not a mispronounciation -- I thought that was rather
obvious).

Post by Larry Swain
Nudel is likely a Germanization of the Latin minutulus

Maybe, though this variant isn't in the dictionary. I think the
other variant looks more likely. But I don't know enough to really
judge it.

- Dirk

[Larry Swain]

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Larry Swain
Noodle as in pasta probably enters English also in the late
1700s, but is probably a mispronunciation of German knudel with
a an umlaut over that u, and a weakening of the initial "k".

Actually its an o with umlaut, i.e. "Knödel" ("flour dumpling"). "Knüdel"
doesn't exist, though "Nüdeli", as a southern dialect form of "Nudel",
does. My etymological dictionary says it might also come from the noun
"Knuddel" (something pressed tightly together; probably related to "to
cuddle").

Well, yes and no actually. First, I got confused: there should
be no "k" in my Nudel! I got confused between Nudel and
knodel. English "noodle" as in pasta likely comes from Nudel,
not knodel, though they are related.

But German Nudel comes from Knödel (or Knuddel, etc.), according to
my etymologogical dictionary. (And "Nudel" and "noodle" are of course
the same word, not a mispronounciation -- I thought that was rather
obvious).

So? The question was where noodle in English comes from, not
about the development of german, English borrowed the word
nudel, not knodel as i first said. And no, Nudel and noodle are
not the same word, one is English and one is German. That
English anglicized a German word 400 years ago is true and the
English word is in origin a borrowing from German is also true,
but they are not the same word. And you should pay more
attention here: ready? If English borrowed Nudel and made it
noodle, how can there be a K and an umlaut being mispronouced?
Now here's the good part: they can't be. So the bit about the
mispronunciation was my error as was my suggestion about Knodel
being the source of the English word. Perhaps because I tried
to make light of it you missed the fact that I was trying to say
that I was wrong in the first place and then corrected my
error.

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Larry Swain
Nudel is likely a Germanization of the Latin minutulus

Maybe, though this variant isn't in the dictionary. I think the
other variant looks more likely. But I don't know enough to really
judge it.

Gapped forms of minutulos appear in ROmance languages meaning
pasta too, so it is likely that they all came from the same
root.
I may check further if I have time.

[Troels Forchhammer]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Samwise son of Hamfast, otherwise known as Sam Gamgee, is
well-known (within the pages of LotR) for reciting old sayings
learnt from his father (Hamfast Gamgee or simply the Gaffer). I
first began to take note of these in a recent Chapter of the Week
discussion, and made a vague threat to try and list some of them.

Thanks, great list!

(By the way: on the subject of lists: I've created a nice little script
that has been collecting day-by-day posting statistics for AFT and RABT
from Google from November 23, 1992 and April 1, 1993 respectively -- I
will run it a third time collecting the cross-posting statistics. I
hope this will be useful for the history project.)

<snip list>

You missed one of my personal favourites (in the humorous department)
from the Scouring of the Shire:

" 'Well, you can't say fairer than that,' said the gaffer.
'Mr. Frodo Baggins is a real gentlehobbit, I always have
said, whatever you may think of some others of the name,
begging your pardon. And I hope my Sam's behaved hisself
and given satisfaction?'
'Perfect satisfaction, Mr. Gamgee,' said Frodo. 'Indeed,
if you will believe it, he's now one of the most famous
people in all the lands, and they are making songs about
his deeds from here to the Sea and beyond the Great River.'
Sam blushed, but he looked gratefully at Frodo, for Rosie's
eyes were shining and she was smiling at him.
'It takes a lot o' believing,' said the gaffer, 'though I
can see he's been mixing in strange company. What's come of
his weskit? I don't hold with wearing ironmongery, whether
it wears well or no.'"

I left in Frodo's comment for context.

I particularly like the last two sentences -- for some reason his
'whether it wears well or no' always has me LOL when I read it ;-)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
I think all these sayings give a nice insight into the character
of Hamfast Gamgee,

Indeed. Though they are becoming more and more rare (at least in
Denmark) one can still meet an old gaffer in places, and Tolkien has
caught them right on.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
and also into his son, Samwise Gamgee.

The true Hobbit, the most Hobbit-like of the four Hobbits in the
fellowship (and the only from a lower social class). It is, I think,
noteworthy that he does end up becoming the mayor several times.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
The one I like best is the one from when they are in front of
the Black Gate. That one is quite sombre,

Not so much the 'gafferism', for me that is, but the filial regret at
the prospect of not proving his gaffer wrong on this point (I like to
think that the gaffer did end up being very proud of his son).

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
but mostly these moments of the story are lighter and sometimes
humorous.

I think that most, if not all, of the gaffer's own sayings serve both a
humorous role as well as helping to define something essentially
Hobbitish -- I recall Bilbo and Frodo's relative Dora and her long
correspondance of advice as well as Bilbo's own lapse into this Hobbit
habit when giving Pippin and Merry "a fair sample of this" and
afterwards adding "in Shire-fashion: 'Don't let your heads get too big
for your hats! But if you don't finish growing up soon, you are going
to find hats and clothes expensive.'"

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Samwise son of Hamfast, otherwise known as Sam Gamgee, is
well-known (within the pages of LotR) for reciting old sayings
learnt from his father (Hamfast Gamgee or simply the Gaffer).

Thanks, great list!

That is as far as I wanted to go. I did hear someone say that there are
"at least 70" sayings/proverbs in LotR. The Gafferisms are the nicest
though!

Post by Troels Forchhammer
(By the way: on the subject of lists: I've created a nice little
script that has been collecting day-by-day posting statistics for AFT
and RABT from Google from November 23, 1992 and April 1, 1993
respectively -- I will run it a third time collecting the
cross-posting statistics. I hope this will be useful for the history
project.)

Definitely! Could you e-mail me off-list about that? I still have that
spreadsheet I'd like to discuss with you (or anyone) if you/they have
time.

<snip>

Post by Troels Forchhammer
'It takes a lot o' believing,' said the gaffer, 'though I
can see he's been mixing in strange company. What's come of
his weskit? I don't hold with wearing ironmongery, whether
it wears well or no.'"

That is very funny! :-)

I had to look up 'weskit'. I should have guessed it was a dialect word
for waistcoat! Tolkien was famous for wearing brightly-coloured
waistcoats like his hobbits!!

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
I think all these sayings give a nice insight into the character
of Hamfast Gamgee,

Indeed. Though they are becoming more and more rare (at least in
Denmark) one can still meet an old gaffer in places, and Tolkien has
caught them right on.

Hopefully the spirit of gaffers will live on, even if they words they
use might change...

Christopher

[Stan Brown]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
I had to look up 'weskit'. I should have guessed it was a dialect word
for waistcoat! Tolkien was famous for wearing brightly-coloured
waistcoats like his hobbits!!

Not so much a "dialect word" as phonetic transliteration of the
usual pronunciation. I believe Tolkien himself pronounced it
"weskit".

For some reason, it is a convention to show rustic speech by writing
words exactly the way _everyone_ pronounces them rather than using
normal spelling. Compare "sez" for "says". Everybody pronounces the
word "sez", but somehow if you write it "sez" it indicates that a
rustic is speaking.

[John Jones]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
I had to look up 'weskit'. I should have guessed it was a dialect word
for waistcoat! Tolkien was famous for wearing brightly-coloured
waistcoats like his hobbits!!

Not so much a "dialect word" as phonetic transliteration of the
usual pronunciation. I believe Tolkien himself pronounced it
"weskit".

It's Midlands speech.

Post by Stan Brown
For some reason, it is a convention to show rustic speech by writing
words exactly the way _everyone_ pronounces them rather than using
normal spelling. Compare "sez" for "says". Everybody pronounces the
word "sez", but somehow if you write it "sez" it indicates that a
rustic is speaking.

Not really; 'sez' is dialect or an accent. English Received Pronunciation
speakers use 'says'.

[Stan Brown]

Post by John Jones
Not really; 'sez' is dialect or an accent. English Received Pronunciation
speakers use 'says'.

Really? I've listened to lots of Brideshead Revisited and English
Hitchcock movies and while I do hear the past tense of "are" as
"wear", never hear the present of "say" as "says".

[John Jones]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by John Jones
Not really; 'sez' is dialect or an accent. English Received

Pronunciation

Post by Stan Brown

Post by John Jones
speakers use 'says'.

Really? I've listened to lots of Brideshead Revisited and English
Hitchcock movies and while I do hear the past tense of "are" as
"wear", never hear the present of "say" as "says".

Possibly the idea of Received Pronunciation has changed; certainly the way
pre-war upper class people spoke is quite different from modern RP. Tolkien
himself told a bumptious American officer that RP is the speech of the
bourgeoisie, not of the aristocracy.
Needless to say, I consider that the way I speak is correct RP! The past
tense of 'are' is 'wur' (but not quite).

[Nathan Keedy]

Post by John Jones

Post by Stan Brown
For some reason, it is a convention to show rustic speech by writing
words exactly the way _everyone_ pronounces them rather than using
normal spelling. Compare "sez" for "says". Everybody pronounces the
word "sez", but somehow if you write it "sez" it indicates that a
rustic is speaking.

Not really; 'sez' is dialect or an accent. English Received Pronunciation
speakers use 'says'.

Really? I don't think I've ever met anyone who actually pronounces says as 'says'.

[John Jones]

Post by Nathan Keedy

Post by John Jones

Post by Stan Brown
For some reason, it is a convention to show rustic speech by writing
words exactly the way _everyone_ pronounces them rather than using
normal spelling. Compare "sez" for "says". Everybody pronounces the
word "sez", but somehow if you write it "sez" it indicates that a
rustic is speaking.

Not really; 'sez' is dialect or an accent. English Received

Pronunciation

Post by Nathan Keedy

Post by John Jones
speakers use 'says'.

Really? I don't think I've ever met anyone who actually pronounces says as 'says'.

Well, you know one now ;o)

[Odysseus]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
I had to look up 'weskit'. I should have guessed it was a dialect word
for waistcoat! Tolkien was famous for wearing brightly-coloured
waistcoats like his hobbits!!

Not so much a "dialect word" as phonetic transliteration of the
usual pronunciation. I believe Tolkien himself pronounced it
"weskit".
For some reason, it is a convention to show rustic speech by writing
words exactly the way _everyone_ pronounces them rather than using
normal spelling. Compare "sez" for "says". Everybody pronounces the
word "sez", but somehow if you write it "sez" it indicates that a
rustic is speaking.

As John mentioned, the "sez" pronunciation is much less standard in
Britain than in North America. Anyway, the term for such spellings as
"weskit" is "eye dialect", and it's generally taken to be
disparaging. Although Tolkien uses it with obvious affection, a
cynical reader might still consider it patronizing.

[Yuk Tang]

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
and also into his son, Samwise Gamgee.

The true Hobbit, the most Hobbit-like of the four Hobbits in the
fellowship (and the only from a lower social class).

He's the only one not to come from the notorious Took and Brandybuck
clans, who are known for being queer i' t'head.

[Shanahan]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Samwise son of Hamfast, otherwise known as Sam Gamgee, is
well-known (within the pages of LotR) for reciting old sayings
learnt from his father (Hamfast Gamgee or simply the Gaffer). I

<snip wonderful quotes>

Don't forget my favorite:
Gaffer to the regulars in the Ivy Bush:
"Old Mr. Bilbo has learnt him his letters (meaning no harm mind
you, and I hope no harm comes of it)..."

Ciaran S.
--
"Humans need fantasy to be human.
To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape...
You need to believe in things that aren't true.
How else can they *become*?"
- t. pratchett

[Larry Swain]

Ninnehammer means, as indicated by Tolkien's use, blockhead,
stupid, fool. It is a compound of course, and the etymology is
uncertain, but the best possibility is that of ninny(this word
actually is attested LATER than ninnyhammer!) which itself might
be a dialetal shortening of "innocent", and a shortening of
"hammer-headed", which also means "dull of intellect, stupid."
So very possibly a "ninnyhammerhead" was original (sounds like a
childhood taunt, "Ninny! Hammerhead! Nyah Nyah Nyah!"), drop
the "head", ninnyhammer, variously spelled (ninnihammer,
ninnehammer, ninniehammer, ninihammer,nynnyhammer.....you get
the idea).

[Taemon]

Post by Larry Swain
Ninnehammer means, as indicated by Tolkien's use,
blockhead, stupid, fool.

<snip etymology>

Thanks! That is some weird word. Makes a lot more sense now. Tell
me, is there a reason I associate the word "ninny" with "rabbit"?

T.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Taemon

Post by Larry Swain
Ninnehammer means, as indicated by Tolkien's use,
blockhead, stupid, fool.

<snip etymology>

You couldn't do an etymology of "noodles" could you, Larry? I found a
dictionary that said noodle can mean head, but it didn't give an
etymology.

Post by Taemon
Thanks! That is some weird word. Makes a lot more sense now. Tell
me, is there a reason I associate the word "ninny" with "rabbit"?

bunny? Which reminds me, someone thought a grey ship was a big ship, but
they might have been thinking of a great ship.

[Taemon]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Tell me, is there a reason I associate the word
"ninny" with "rabbit"?

bunny?

Hmmm... Could be.

T.

[TT Arvind]

Wes ðu Christopher Kreuzer hal!

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
You couldn't do an etymology of "noodles" could you, Larry? I found a
dictionary that said noodle can mean head, but it didn't give an
etymology.

"noodle" or "noddle" for head comes either from Latin 'nodulus', or from
'nod' (as in "to nod off", just like "girdle" comes from the verb
'gird'). You'll find "noddle" meaning "head" in Dunbar, amongst others.
"Noodle" - the thing you eat - comes from German "knödel", meaning
"dumpling", because dumplings were cooked in a similar way and eaten
with similar sauces.

[Larry Swain]

Post by TT Arvind
Wes ðu Christopher Kreuzer hal!

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
You couldn't do an etymology of "noodles" could you, Larry? I found a
dictionary that said noodle can mean head, but it didn't give an
etymology.

"noodle" or "noddle" for head comes either from Latin 'nodulus', or from
'nod' (as in "to nod off", just like "girdle" comes from the verb
'gird'). You'll find "noddle" meaning "head" in Dunbar, amongst others.
"Noodle" - the thing you eat - comes from German "knödel", meaning
"dumpling", because dumplings were cooked in a similar way and eaten
with similar sauces.

Lat. nodulus-little knot; "nod" from Middle English nodden,
possibly from MHG hnoton, to shake. Anyway, noodle in the sense
of head is an old use.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"'Rope!' cried Sam, talking wildly to himself in his excitement and
relief. 'Well, if I don't deserve to be hung on the end of one as a
that's what the Gaffer said to me often enough, it being a word of
his. Rope!'" (Sam remembering he has a rope, The Taming of Smeagol)

I thought there was something funny about this quote. I suddenly noticed
that the: "...hung on the end of one as a warning to numbskulls!" bit
seems to be a reference to capital punishment by hanging.

I remember the topic of capital punishment in Middle-earth coming up in
the discussion of the 'The Voice of Saruman' chapter, where there is a
reference to a gibbet:

"Too long have they escaped the gibbet themselves. But the noose comes,
slow in the drawing, tight and hard in the end. Hang if you will!"
(Saruman talking about the House of Eorl, The Voice of Saruman)

Belba then mentioned Boromir asking if Gollum was put to death:

"He is a small thing, you say, this Gollum? Small, but great in
mischief. What became of him? To what doom did you put him?" (Boromir,
The Council of Elrond)

and Faramir saying that Gollum's life (and previously Frodo and Sam for
being in Ithilien without leave) was forfeit for coming to Henneth
Annun, and that he himself will be put to death if his choice is wrong:

"Were I as hasty as you, I might have slain you long ago. For I am
commanded to slay all whom I find in this land without the leave of the
Lord of Gondor. [...] I should now take you back to Minas Tirith to
answer there to Denethor, and my life will justly be forfeit, if I now
choose a course that proves ill for my city." (Faramir speaking to Frodo
and Sam, The Window on the West)

"But now he has done worse trespass than only to go coney-snaring in the
uplands: he has dared to come to Henneth Annun, and his life is
forfeit." (Faramir speaking of Gollum, The Forbidden Pool)

There is also the bit where Eomer says his life may be forfeit if
Aragorn does not return the horses:

"In this I place myself, and maybe my very life, in the keeping of your
good faith. Do not fail." (Eomer to Aragorn, The Riders of Rohan)

And in Minas Tirith, Beregond's life would normally have been forfeit
for spilling blood in Rath Dinen and for deserting his post:

"Beregond, by your sword blood was spilled in the Hallows, where that is
forbidden. Also you left your post without leave of Lord or of Captain.
For these things, of old, death was the penalty. Now therefore I must
pronounce your doom." (Aragorn speaking to Beregond, The Steward and the
King)

And of course we have Gandalf's words to Frodo after Frodo says that
Gollum deserves death:

"...do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement." (The Shadow of
the Past)

And Frodo's version of this:

"...be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing
for your own safety." (The Taming of Smeagol)

And of course Sam and Frodo were merciful and showed pity to Gollum.
Which is pretty central to the whole story.

Jens Kilian also mentioned that Bree punished people by banishing them
from the village:

"we showed them the gates and pushed them out" (Butterbur talking to the
hobbits and Gandalf, Homeward Bound)

And Wormtongue was given the option of exile (despite Eomer wanting to
kill him) with a hint of worse to come later if he returned:

"This is your choice: to ride with me to war, and let us see in battle
whether you are true; or to go now, whither you will. But then, if ever
we meet again, I shall not be merciful." (Theoden's ultimatum to
Wormtongue, The King of the Golden Hall)

There is an implication that the Ents would have killed Saruman if they
had caught him at the initial assault on Isengard, but Treebeard and
Gandalf left Saruman locked in Orthanc, though the Ents later freed him
(under the influence of Saruman's voice). The hobbits later want to put
Saruman and the ruffians to death, but Frodo restrains them (all the
following are rather frightening examples of mob justice - seemingly
less civilised than the military justice of Rohan/Gondor):

"But remember: there is to be no slaying of hobbits, not even if they
have gone over to the other side. Really gone over, I mean; not just
obeying ruffians' orders because they are frightened. No hobbit has ever
killed another on purpose in the Shire, and it is not to begin now. And
nobody is to be killed at all, if it can be helped." (Frodo, The
Scouring of the Shire)

I guess Frodo's "no hobbit has ever killed another on purpose in the
Shire" means that Sam's "hung on the end of [a rope]" bit must be
referring to tales of those outside the Shire or before the Shire was
founded.

At the Battle of Bywater, Frodo's: "chief part had been to prevent the
hobbits in their wrath at their losses, from slaying those of their
enemies who threw down their weapons." (The Scouring of the Shire)

Then we have the hobbits reaction to Saruman:

"Don't let him go! Kill him! He's a villain and a murderer. Kill him!"

But Frodo restrains them here, and later when Saruman attacks him. But
he is unable to stop the hobbits killing Wormtongue.

Can anyone think of other examples of justice, punishment, and capital
punishment (and maybe related mercy in justice) in any of Tolkien's
writings? Especially 'The Hobbit' and 'The Silmarillion'?

Christopher

[Natman]

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:31:19 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"'Rope!' cried Sam, talking wildly to himself in his excitement and
relief. 'Well, if I don't deserve to be hung on the end of one as a
that's what the Gaffer said to me often enough, it being a word of
his. Rope!'" (Sam remembering he has a rope, The Taming of Smeagol)

I thought there was something funny about this quote. I suddenly noticed
that the: "...hung on the end of one as a warning to numbskulls!" bit
seems to be a reference to capital punishment by hanging.
I remember the topic of capital punishment in Middle-earth coming up in
the discussion of the 'The Voice of Saruman' chapter, where there is a
"Too long have they escaped the gibbet themselves. But the noose comes,
slow in the drawing, tight and hard in the end. Hang if you will!"
(Saruman talking about the House of Eorl, The Voice of Saruman)
"He is a small thing, you say, this Gollum? Small, but great in
mischief. What became of him? To what doom did you put him?" (Boromir,
The Council of Elrond)
and Faramir saying that Gollum's life (and previously Frodo and Sam for
being in Ithilien without leave) was forfeit for coming to Henneth
"Were I as hasty as you, I might have slain you long ago. For I am
commanded to slay all whom I find in this land without the leave of the
Lord of Gondor. [...] I should now take you back to Minas Tirith to
answer there to Denethor, and my life will justly be forfeit, if I now
choose a course that proves ill for my city." (Faramir speaking to Frodo
and Sam, The Window on the West)
"But now he has done worse trespass than only to go coney-snaring in the
uplands: he has dared to come to Henneth Annun, and his life is
forfeit." (Faramir speaking of Gollum, The Forbidden Pool)
There is also the bit where Eomer says his life may be forfeit if
"In this I place myself, and maybe my very life, in the keeping of your
good faith. Do not fail." (Eomer to Aragorn, The Riders of Rohan)
And in Minas Tirith, Beregond's life would normally have been forfeit
"Beregond, by your sword blood was spilled in the Hallows, where that is
forbidden. Also you left your post without leave of Lord or of Captain.
For these things, of old, death was the penalty. Now therefore I must
pronounce your doom." (Aragorn speaking to Beregond, The Steward and the
King)
And of course we have Gandalf's words to Frodo after Frodo says that
"...do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement." (The Shadow of
the Past)
"...be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing
for your own safety." (The Taming of Smeagol)
And of course Sam and Frodo were merciful and showed pity to Gollum.
Which is pretty central to the whole story.
Jens Kilian also mentioned that Bree punished people by banishing them
"we showed them the gates and pushed them out" (Butterbur talking to the
hobbits and Gandalf, Homeward Bound)
And Wormtongue was given the option of exile (despite Eomer wanting to
"This is your choice: to ride with me to war, and let us see in battle
whether you are true; or to go now, whither you will. But then, if ever
we meet again, I shall not be merciful." (Theoden's ultimatum to
Wormtongue, The King of the Golden Hall)
There is an implication that the Ents would have killed Saruman if they
had caught him at the initial assault on Isengard, but Treebeard and
Gandalf left Saruman locked in Orthanc, though the Ents later freed him
(under the influence of Saruman's voice). The hobbits later want to put
Saruman and the ruffians to death, but Frodo restrains them (all the
following are rather frightening examples of mob justice - seemingly
"But remember: there is to be no slaying of hobbits, not even if they
have gone over to the other side. Really gone over, I mean; not just
obeying ruffians' orders because they are frightened. No hobbit has ever
killed another on purpose in the Shire, and it is not to begin now. And
nobody is to be killed at all, if it can be helped." (Frodo, The
Scouring of the Shire)
I guess Frodo's "no hobbit has ever killed another on purpose in the
Shire" means that Sam's "hung on the end of [a rope]" bit must be
referring to tales of those outside the Shire or before the Shire was
founded.
At the Battle of Bywater, Frodo's: "chief part had been to prevent the
hobbits in their wrath at their losses, from slaying those of their
enemies who threw down their weapons." (The Scouring of the Shire)
"Don't let him go! Kill him! He's a villain and a murderer. Kill him!"
But Frodo restrains them here, and later when Saruman attacks him. But
he is unable to stop the hobbits killing Wormtongue.
Can anyone think of other examples of justice, punishment, and capital
punishment (and maybe related mercy in justice) in any of Tolkien's
writings? Especially 'The Hobbit' and 'The Silmarillion'?
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

There's Gandalf's speech to Frodo concerning Gollum (FOTR, the Shadow
of the Past):

Frodo: "He deserves death"

Gandalf: "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve
death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then
do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."

[Stan Brown]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"He is a small thing, you say, this Gollum? Small, but great in
mischief. What became of him? To what doom did you put him?" (Boromir,
The Council of Elrond)

"Doom" in that quote means "fate" not "death". In modern language,
Boromir was asking, "What did you do with him? Imprisonment, death,
or what?"

"Doom" in LotR has both its old meaning, as when Elrond says "that
is the doom that we must deem", and its modern meaning, as when
Boromir mutters "The Halfling! Is then the doom of Minas Tirith come
at last?"

[Larry Swain]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"He is a small thing, you say, this Gollum? Small, but great in
mischief. What became of him? To what doom did you put him?" (Boromir,
The Council of Elrond)

"Doom" in that quote means "fate" not "death". In modern language,
Boromir was asking, "What did you do with him? Imprisonment, death,
or what?"
"Doom" in LotR has both its old meaning, as when Elrond says "that
is the doom that we must deem", and its modern meaning, as when
Boromir mutters "The Halfling! Is then the doom of Minas Tirith come
at last?"

Not fate so much as judgement, legal decision, sentence. Dooms
Day is literally Old English (domdaeg) for Judgement Day.

So the "doom we must deem" would be in Mod. parlance, The
decision we must decide, Or the judgement we must judge.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

<snip>

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Stan Brown
"Doom" in LotR has both its old meaning, as when Elrond says "that
is the doom that we must deem", and its modern meaning, as when
Boromir mutters "The Halfling! Is then the doom of Minas Tirith come
at last?"

Not fate so much as judgement, legal decision, sentence. Dooms
Day is literally Old English (domdaeg) for Judgement Day.
So the "doom we must deem" would be in Mod. parlance, The
decision we must decide, Or the judgement we must judge.

Hang on. Are you saying that 'deem' is a verb of 'doom'? Or that 'doom'
is a noun-verb or something. I think what I am trying to say is: are
'doom' and 'deem' different forms of the same word?

Christopher

[TT Arvind]

Wes ðu Christopher Kreuzer hal!

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Hang on. Are you saying that 'deem' is a verb of 'doom'? Or that 'doom'
is a noun-verb or something. I think what I am trying to say is: are
'doom' and 'deem' different forms of the same word?

In a sense. In Old English, the two words were distinct - "doom" was
'dóm' and "deem" was 'déman'. But both are thought to come from the
same proto-Germanic root.

("dóm", by the way, is also where the modern -dom suffix - as in freedom
- comes from)

[Larry Swain]

Post by TT Arvind
Wes ðu Christopher Kreuzer hal!

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Hang on. Are you saying that 'deem' is a verb of 'doom'? Or that 'doom'
is a noun-verb or something. I think what I am trying to say is: are
'doom' and 'deem' different forms of the same word?

In a sense. In Old English, the two words were distinct - "doom" was
'dóm' and "deem" was 'déman'. But both are thought to come from the
same proto-Germanic root.

Indo-European languages generally do this with a number of
common words. To take a Latin example:
amo, to love; amor, love; amans, the part. but also adj. loving;
and so on......

Post by TT Arvind
("dóm", by the way, is also where the modern -dom suffix - as in freedom
- comes from)

and kingdom

[Larry Swain]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>

Post by Larry Swain

Post by Stan Brown
"Doom" in LotR has both its old meaning, as when Elrond says "that
is the doom that we must deem", and its modern meaning, as when
Boromir mutters "The Halfling! Is then the doom of Minas Tirith come
at last?"

Not fate so much as judgement, legal decision, sentence. Dooms
Day is literally Old English (domdaeg) for Judgement Day.
So the "doom we must deem" would be in Mod. parlance, The
decision we must decide, Or the judgement we must judge.

Hang on. Are you saying that 'deem' is a verb of 'doom'? Or that 'doom'
is a noun-verb or something. I think what I am trying to say is: are
'doom' and 'deem' different forms of the same word?

Yes. They come from the same root. dom is the noun, deman is
the Old English form of the verb, long e. We do it with a few
words in MOdern English too: sing a song, for example.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"He is a small thing, you say, this Gollum? Small, but great in
mischief. What became of him? To what doom did you put him?"
(Boromir, The Council of Elrond)

"Doom" in that quote means "fate" not "death". In modern language,
Boromir was asking, "What did you do with him? Imprisonment, death,
or what?"

The "put" bit reminds me of the phrase "he was put to death". But I
guess you can 'put' lots of things...

Post by Stan Brown
"Doom" in LotR has both its old meaning, as when Elrond says "that
is the doom that we must deem", and its modern meaning, as when
Boromir mutters "The Halfling! Is then the doom of Minas Tirith come
at last?"

Nice. Doom is one word that resonates throughout the books. I must
remember that distinction though! It is not easy to be sure.

How about "and doom fell upon Tinuviel"?
And Beren's feet that "over hills were doomed to roam"?

These two are obvously more fate than judgement (picking up on Larry's
distinction between the two).

Heh. And I wonder which sense is meant for Mount Doom?
"On Mount Doom doom shall fall." (Frodo)

And the Doom of dumbeats!! (onomatopoeic)

Celeborn and Galadriel talk about Doom as well.
"To Isengard with Doom we come!" (the Ents)

The bits with Faramir and Gollum are a nice illustration of the
distinction between judgement and death, as well as the close
connection:

"'Then I will declare my doom,' said Faramir [...] 'This doom shall
stand for a year and a day...' [to Frodo, and then to Gollum:] you are
under doom of death [...] Yet if ever you be found by any man of Gondor
astray without [Frodo] the doom shall fall." (The Window on the West)

The Lord of the Ring-wraiths had met his doom.
Stand, Men of the West! Stand and wait! This is the hour of doom.

And it is interesting how the Ring of Power, Ruling Ring (and other
names besides) becomes (after it is destroyed) the Ring of Doom.

And 'The Silmarillion' is, ermm, very doomy. :-)

Christopher

[Troels Forchhammer]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"He is a small thing, you say, this Gollum? Small, but great in
mischief. What became of him? To what doom did you put him?"
(Boromir, The Council of Elrond)

"Doom" in that quote means "fate" not "death". In modern language,
Boromir was asking, "What did you do with him? Imprisonment,
death, or what?"
"Doom" in LotR has both its old meaning, as when Elrond says "that
is the doom that we must deem", and its modern meaning, as when
Boromir mutters "The Halfling! Is then the doom of Minas Tirith
come at last?"

Leaning heavily on the Scandinavian uses of 'dom' here . . .

I think that all of these can be explained using the old meaning -- a
decision about the fate of something.

Boromir is asking if this, at last is when the fate of Minas Tirith
will be decided.

This would also include the Doom of Mandos -- a decision that decided
the fate of the exiles.

The sense of 'judgement' is, I think, also covered.

The word involves a decision or judgement, but a strong sense of fate
is implied -- it is decision or judgement that affects the fates of
those involved: it is not just a decision of whether you want
strawberry or vanilla flavour in your ice cream (though in the end the
removal of the vanilla flavour might be the result of the doom of the
customers).

[Shanahan]

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"He is a small thing, you say, this Gollum? Small, but great
in mischief. What became of him? To what doom did you put
him?" (Boromir, The Council of Elrond)

"Doom" in LotR has both its old meaning, as when Elrond says
"that is the doom that we must deem", and its modern meaning,
as when Boromir mutters "The Halfling! Is then the doom of
Minas Tirith come at last?"

Leaning heavily on the Scandinavian uses of 'dom' here . . .
I think that all of these can be explained using the old meaning
-- a decision about the fate of something.
Boromir is asking if this, at last is when the fate of Minas
Tirith will be decided.
This would also include the Doom of Mandos -- a decision that
decided the fate of the exiles.
The sense of 'judgement' is, I think, also covered.
The word involves a decision or judgement, but a strong sense of
fate is implied -- it is decision or judgement that affects the
fates of those involved

This fits pretty exactly with the Latin etymology of the word
'fate', also. Fate is inescapable, the word of the gods. But we
also find in Tolkien that 'fate' is not inescapable; 'chance' and
the courage and pity of those involved will also affect the outcome
of a decision. (Not to mention the ol' 'free will'.)

Tolkien may have varied between using the modern words 'doom',
'fortune', 'chance' and 'fate', because there is no exact modern
equivalent for the word he was really thinking of: Old English
'/wyrd/'. Shippey has some interesting things to say about this
(he is discussing 'chance' versus 'fate'):

"The Old English word is /wyrd/, which most glossaries and
dictionaries translate as 'fate' [Shippey is disagreeing with this
translation]. Tolkien knew that the etymologies of the two words
were quite different, 'fate' coming from the Latin /fari/, 'to
speak', so, 'that which has been spoken', sc. by the gods. The Old
English word derives from /weorþan/, 'to become': it means 'what
has become'..../Wyrd/ can be an oppressive force, then, for no one
can change the past; but it is perhaps not as oppressive as 'fate'
or even 'fortune'...."

Beowulf: "/Wyrd/ often spares the man who is not doomed....as long
as his courage holds."

Ciaran S.
--
From the wildness of my heart I cannot
exclude the question whether railway-engineers, if they
had been brought up on more fantasy, might not have
done better with all their abundant means than they commonly do.
- JRRT

[Dirk Thierbach]

Fate is inescapable, the word of the gods. But we also find in
Tolkien that 'fate' is not inescapable;

Is it? There are several attempts by people to "escape" their fate
(e.g. Turin); but in they end, they don't succeed, and it is exactly
their actions that cause the "prophecies" to come true (a common
theme in fairy-tales). After all, their fate is determined by the way
they are, by their character, so they cannot escape themselves.

It's this tension between "inescapable fate" and the attempts to escape
them nevertheless that makes the stories interesting.

'chance' and the courage and pity of those involved will also affect
the outcome of a decision. (Not to mention the ol' 'free will'.)

Hm. Is there any example in Tolkien where these things have changed
the "fate"? I cannot think of any at the moment.

Shippey has some interesting things to say about this (he is

[snip quote about etymology]

This is not from "The Road to Middle Earth", is it? There's also some
interesting discussion in several places in this book, beyond the
etymology.

- Dirk

[Troels Forchhammer]

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Fate is inescapable, the word of the gods. But we also find in
Tolkien that 'fate' is not inescapable;

Is it? There are several attempts by people to "escape" their fate
(e.g. Turin); but in they end, they don't succeed, and it is
exactly their actions that cause the "prophecies" to come true (a
common theme in fairy-tales). After all, their fate is determined
by the way they are, by their character, so they cannot escape
themselves.

Is there a difference between 'destiny' and 'fate' in English?
And in that case, would either apply better than the other in this
case?

Frodo was 'meant' by the Valar or Eru to take the Ring to Mordor --
that task was appointed to him, as Elrond concludes. But he still had a
choice whether to take up the task or not, he held himself the power to
accept that doom or to reject it. It was, in a sense, his own choice
whether to take up the fate that was laid before him.

The case of Turin is a bit more complex. By trying to work against his
fate, he fulfilled it, but part of this was also due to Morgoth's
malice (as I read it), that followed him. That his fate always caught
up with him was not always by his own errors alone.

Post by Dirk Thierbach
It's this tension between "inescapable fate" and the attempts to
escape them nevertheless that makes the stories interesting.

That as well as the acceptance of the tasks set by some higher powers,
as in the case of Frodo.

Post by Dirk Thierbach

'chance' and the courage and pity of those involved will also
affect the outcome of a decision. (Not to mention the ol' 'free
will'.)

Hm. Is there any example in Tolkien where these things have
changed the "fate"? I cannot think of any at the moment.

I can't either, but I think that part of the message is that the
characters still choose their actions themselves -- they are not bereft
of their free will to act, but somehow they always end up doing as they
were fated. Some of this might be the Catholic, or Christian, speaking:
whether you accept God or reject Him, you will nevertheless end up
doing his will.

<snip>

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Fate is inescapable, the word of the gods. But we also find in
Tolkien that 'fate' is not inescapable;

Is it? There are several attempts by people to "escape" their fate
(e.g. Turin); but in they end, they don't succeed, and it is
exactly their actions that cause the "prophecies" to come true (a
common theme in fairy-tales). After all, their fate is determined
by the way they are, by their character, so they cannot escape
themselves.

Is there a difference between 'destiny' and 'fate' in English?
And in that case, would either apply better than the other in this
case?

There might be a slight difference, but with fundamental concepts like
this there can sometimes be a collection of similar but slightly
different words, and part of the skill of an author is chosing the
correct word, or the correct combination of words, to express his
meaning.

But an author also has to hope his readers have the same understanding
of words that he does. In Tolkien's case I am not so sure that he did
not sometimes go too far! [But it is still interesting.]

Getting back to 'fate' and 'destiny', I would use examples like:

"He fulfilled his destiny." [+]
"The doom long foreseen came upon him." [*]
"He was driven by fate." [&]

I would say that destiny is less 'strong' than 'fate'. And that fate is
something inevitable (with either foresight or hindsight) even if you
try to avoid it, while destiny (sometimes foretold) is something that
can be achieved by your own efforts, and has 'positive' connotations,
rather than the 'negative' ones associated with fate.

But others may disagree, of course!

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Frodo was 'meant' by the Valar or Eru to take the Ring to Mordor

I actually think that it is wrong to say any of:

Frodo was fated to be the Ringbearer.
Frodo was destined to be the Ringbearer.

Both of these imply unavoidable foresight. Events conspiring to force
Frodo to be the Ringbearer. Which is not what happened.

Consider this quote directly from 'The Council of Elrond':

"A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of
some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all
never be spoken." (Frodo about to accept the task of taking the Ring to
the Fire, The Council of Elrond)

[* - Now I know why I chose that example for doom!]

So it is correct to say that Frodo's doom was to be the Ringbearer. The
only question is when that doom or 'judgement' occurred. I would say
that Eru deemed ('judged') Frodo as suitable to be the Ringbearer, and
the final stage was Frodo's free choice to be the Ringbearer (with Eru's
blessing). This bit about free choice does make it different from normal
dooms, but there is still some deeming going on, hence it is described
as a doom.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
that task was appointed to him, as Elrond concludes.

You can be appointed without being meant to do something. You might just
be the best person available. Gandalf had a large (maybe mostly
unwitting) role in finding the best people suited to carrying the Ring.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
But he still had
a choice whether to take up the task or not, he held himself the
power to accept that doom or to reject it. It was, in a sense, his
own choice whether to take up the fate that was laid before him.

I wouldn't call it fate. More a task or quest. As in your first
sentence.

[+] Gandalf says: "The Ring-bearer has fulfilled his Quest." Frodo
fulfils his Quest, not his destiny. He is not said to be destined to
achieve it.

[&] "Long was the way that fate them bore" (Beren and Luthien) and also
"he is bound up with the fate of the Ring." (Gandalf talking about
Gollum).

This quote on fate is particularly interesting:

"In the morning you must depart for now we have chosen, and the tides of
fate are flowing." (Galadriel talking to Frodo after she rejects the
Ring).

I don't even know where to begin comparing this to Frodo's decision to
take the Ring to Mount Doom.

Hmm. There are lots of references to fate:

"Ever am I fated to be your burden, friend at need" (Gandalf to Gwaihir)

"It was an evil fate. But he had taken it on himself in his own
sitting-room in the far-off spring of another year, so remote now that
it was like a chapter in a story of the world's youth, when the Trees of
Silver and Gold were still in bloom." (Frodo at the Black Gate)

Following on from Galadriel's comment about the tides of fate:

"...a black dread fell on them, knowing that the tides of fate had
turned against them and their doom was at hand." (The men and orcs at
the Battle of the Pelennor Fields after Aragorn appears).

And that is, I presume, the modern meaning of doom.

<snip Turin stuff - I've never understood it...>

Christopher

[Troels Forchhammer]

<snip>

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Is there a difference between 'destiny' and 'fate' in English?
And in that case, would either apply better than the other in
this case?

There might be a slight difference,

Thank you for this.

<snip>

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Frodo was 'meant' by the Valar or Eru to take the Ring to Mordor

Frodo was fated to be the Ringbearer.
Frodo was destined to be the Ringbearer.
Both of these imply unavoidable foresight. Events conspiring to
force Frodo to be the Ringbearer. Which is not what happened.

<snip>

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"It was an evil fate. But he had taken it on himself in his own
sitting-room in the far-off spring of another year, so remote now
that it was like a chapter in a story of the world's youth, when
the Trees of Silver and Gold were still in bloom." (Frodo at the
Black Gate)

Doesn't this passage imply that Frodo did in some part chose that fate
himself?

Though the timing is different, this strikes me as giving the same
impression as I intended (though I probably worded it poorly). One
might say that before Frodo made his choice, his journey to Mordor
was one /possible/ fate for him. It was the fate he was meant to
choose, but it wouldn't 'work' unless he chose it freely.

I'm not sure that that is any clearer :-(

Might we talk of a potential fate? A fate Frodo is meant to fulfill,
but one that he has to choose himself?

[Shanahan]

<snip>

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Both of these imply unavoidable foresight. Events conspiring to
force Frodo to be the Ringbearer. Which is not what happened.

Doesn't this passage imply that Frodo did in some part chose
that fate himself?
Though the timing is different, this strikes me as giving the
same impression as I intended (though I probably worded it
poorly). One might say that before Frodo made his choice, his
journey to Mordor was one /possible/ fate for him. It was the
fate he was meant to choose, but it wouldn't 'work' unless he
chose it freely.
I'm not sure that that is any clearer :-(
Might we talk of a potential fate? A fate Frodo is meant to
fulfill, but one that he has to choose himself?

How about Frodo having a choice between the "infamous Trouser Legs
of Time"? <g>

Ciaran S.
--
"Humans need fantasy to be human.
To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape...
You need to believe in things that aren't true.
How else can they *become*?"
- t. pratchett

[Shanahan]

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Fate is inescapable, the word of the gods. But we also find in
Tolkien that 'fate' is not inescapable;

Is it? There are several attempts by people to "escape" their
fate (e.g. Turin); but in they end, they don't succeed, and it
is exactly their actions that cause the "prophecies" to come
true (a common
theme in fairy-tales). After all, their fate is determined by
the way they are, by their character, so they cannot escape
themselves.

Yes, true. This is the Greek form of tragedy, where fate is indeed
inescapable (as it is in the Latin root word for 'fate').
Interesting that the examples you cite are all from the
legendarium...old tragic tales; from the point of view of the
people in LotR, analogous to Greek tragedy from our point of view.
LotR is more of a romance than a tragedy, whereas the older legends
are purely tragedy.

Post by Dirk Thierbach
It's this tension between "inescapable fate" and the attempts to
escape them nevertheless that makes the stories interesting.

And 'tragic'. ;) Like watching a fly caught in a web...

Post by Dirk Thierbach

'chance' and the courage and pity of those involved will also
affect the outcome of a decision. (Not to mention the ol'
'free will'.)

Hm. Is there any example in Tolkien where these things have
changed the "fate"? I cannot think of any at the moment.

Oh boy, now you're going to stump me. It's so hard to argue these
things backwards; all we have are the events as they happened, so
it all *seems* fated, by hindsight. Pretty much all we can say is
"if X had chosen to do this instead of this, then..." and then
point to Tolkien's firm belief in free will.

I could point to the Half-Elven, who are allowed to choose their
own fate; but that's not quite the same as changing a preordained
fate.

I think the best way I can express it is to say that, in LotR (and
perhaps even in The Silm.: Tuor can choose whether or not to follow
Ulmo's chosen fate for him; Ulmo even has to prod him on a few
times, as with the swans), no one is fated to any one road. All are
given choices and allowed to pick their own paths. For example,
Elrond will lay no oath of loyalty on any of the Fellowship (his
argument with Gimli as the Fellowship leaves Rivendell), except
Frodo: and even Frodo is sworn only to not let any other handle the
Ring; he is not sworn to carry it to Orodruin, or sworn to destroy
it.

Let me posit this thesis: a preordained fate must come from the
gods. And since the gods make no pronouncements in LotR, then we
have no true 'fate' in LotR. We only have possible paths, and
choices, and /estel/ that those choices will work out, if the
character gives his utmost to the task.

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Shippey has some interesting things to say about this (he is

This is not from "The Road to Middle Earth", is it? There's also
some interesting discussion in several places in this book,
beyond the etymology.

It's from "Author of the Century". I really enjoy Shippey.

Ciaran S.
--
All slang is metaphor, and all metaphor is poetry.
- g.k. chesterton

[TT Arvind]

Wes ðu Shanahan hal!

Post by Shanahan

Post by Dirk Thierbach
Hm. Is there any example in Tolkien where these things have
changed the "fate"? I cannot think of any at the moment.

Oh boy, now you're going to stump me. It's so hard to argue these
things backwards; all we have are the events as they happened, so
it all *seems* fated, by hindsight. Pretty much all we can say is
"if X had chosen to do this instead of this, then..." and then
point to Tolkien's firm belief in free will.
I could point to the Half-Elven, who are allowed to choose their
own fate; but that's not quite the same as changing a preordained
fate.

I would, however, point to Beren and Luthien, where Beren's fate was
changed by his returning from the dead, and Luthien's fate was changed by
her becoming wholly human. If we say that they were fated to change the
fate that normally awaits elves and men, I would suggest that this is a
slightly too broad use of the concept of fate.

Of course, I might be influenced in my reading by the Hindu conception of
fate and destiny.

Post by Shanahan
Let me posit this thesis: a preordained fate must come from the
gods. And since the gods make no pronouncements in LotR, then we
have no true 'fate' in LotR.

Are you speaking of the Valar or Eru? If you are speaking of the Valar,
then the absence of fate in the LoTR is perhaps easily explained by the
fact that men are the sole masters of their destinies - to an extent that
even the Valar are not.

But surely determining the fate of someone is a matter for Eru, and not
the Valar? The Valar may be aware of someone's destiny, and may have the
power to 'doom' them in judgment, but surely it is not they who fix the
fates of the Children - whether elves or men.

[Shanahan]

Post by TT Arvind
Wes ðu Shanahan hal!

Post by Shanahan

Post by Dirk Thierbach
Hm. Is there any example in Tolkien where these things
[courage, pity, free will] have
changed the "fate"? I cannot think of any at the moment.

<snip>

Post by TT Arvind
I would, however, point to Beren and Luthien, where Beren's fate
was changed by his returning from the dead, and Luthien's fate
was changed by her becoming wholly human.

Beren and Luthien seem like a good example of changing one's fate
to me. The fate in question was that determined (doomed) by Mandos,
that Beren's fëa would follow the common fate of all Mens'; and it
was changed by Luthien's song before Mandos: "...and Mandos was
moved to pity, who never before was so moved, nor has been since."
(The Silm.)

Post by TT Arvind

Post by Shanahan
Let me posit this thesis: a preordained fate must come from the
gods. And since the gods make no pronouncements in LotR, then
we have no true 'fate' in LotR.

Are you speaking of the Valar or Eru? If you are speaking of
the Valar, then the absence of fate in the LoTR is perhaps
easily explained by the fact that men are the sole masters of
their destinies - to an extent that even the Valar are not.

(Eru, through the Valar.) I think you've put your finger on
something very crucial here. This is part of the Gift of Men --
that they can change fate: "...they should have a virtue to shape
their life....beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to
all things else." (The Silm.)

Post by TT Arvind
But surely determining the fate of someone is a matter for Eru,
and not the Valar? The Valar may be aware of someone's destiny,
and may have the power to 'doom' them in judgment, but surely it
is not they who fix the fates of the Children - whether elves or
men.

Yes, that's what I mean by their being no true 'fate' -- in the
sense of Greek tragedy, inescapable, foreordained by the gods -- in
LotR. There seems to be such a thing in many of the stories in The
Silmarillion (Fëanor after the Oath, Túrin), (although that can be
argued, as we see above!), but I believe this kind of 'fate' is
absent in LotR. I would argue that it is absent in LotR, precisely
because LotR is located at the point in history where the Dominion
of Men begins: and the Gift of Men abrogates this kind of fate.

Ciaran S.
--
"Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive
or it may be dead. You never know until you look.
In fact, the mere act of opening the box will
determine the state of the cat, although in this
case there were three determinate states the cat
could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious."
- t. pratchett, /Lords and Ladies/

[Shanahan]

Post by Shanahan

Post by TT Arvind
Wes ðu Shanahan hal!

<snip>

Post by Shanahan
Beren and Luthien seem like a good example of changing one's fate
to me. The fate in question was that determined (doomed) by
Mandos

erm, make that "determined by Eru".

Post by Shanahan
Ciaran S.

--
Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor
and campaign funds from the rich,
by promising to protect each from the other.
-Oscar Ameringer

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by TT Arvind
I would, however, point to Beren and Luthien, where Beren's fate was
changed by his returning from the dead, and Luthien's fate was
changed by her becoming wholly human. If we say that they were fated
to change the fate that normally awaits elves and men, I would
suggest that this is a slightly too broad use of the concept of fate.

There is also the case of Miriel, whose dying (as opposed to being
killed) was contrary to the fate of the Eldar. However, one could say
that this wasn't as much a matter of her changing her fate as her being
a product of Arda Marred.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"He is a small thing, you say, this Gollum? Small, but great in
mischief. What became of him? To what doom did you put him?" (Boromir,
The Council of Elrond)

"Doom" in that quote means "fate" not "death". In modern language,
Boromir was asking, "What did you do with him? Imprisonment, death,
or what?"

Doesn't it mean verdict and sentence?

Fate is impersonals, and is what happens to you because of circumstances. Doom
is the verdict and sentence of a court, based on a specific charge, and is not
nearly as capricious and arbitrary as fate.

[the softrat]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Stan Brown
"Doom" in that quote means "fate" not "death". In modern language,
Boromir was asking, "What did you do with him? Imprisonment, death,
or what?"

Doesn't it mean verdict and sentence?
Fate is impersonals, and is what happens to you because of circumstances. Doom
is the verdict and sentence of a court, based on a specific charge, and is not
nearly as capricious and arbitrary as fate.

Well, uh, when the "verdict and sentence" is from God or the gods ....

(as most men have believed throughout time.)

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
"Aim towards the enemy." - Instruction printed on U.S. Army
rocket launcher

[Steve Hayes]

Post by the softrat

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Stan Brown
"Doom" in that quote means "fate" not "death". In modern language,
Boromir was asking, "What did you do with him? Imprisonment, death,
or what?"

Doesn't it mean verdict and sentence?
Fate is impersonals, and is what happens to you because of circumstances. Doom
is the verdict and sentence of a court, based on a specific charge, and is not
nearly as capricious and arbitrary as fate.

Well, uh, when the "verdict and sentence" is from God or the gods ....

The fates were personifications of impersonal destiny who sometimes even seem
to conftrol Zeus. You don't have to DO anything to get a destiny.

[the softrat]

Post by Steve Hayes
The fates were personifications of impersonal destiny who sometimes even seem
to conftrol Zeus. You don't have to DO anything to get a destiny.

That is the more developed conception. The concept of the existence of
gods preceeds the concept of the existence of fate, moving from the
more concrete to the more abstract. At the most primitive, 'gods' are
just 'who-we-blame-for-stuff-we-don't-know-what-caused-it'.

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
"When science is on your side, argue the science. When the law is on
your side, argue the law. When neither science nor the law is on your
side, issue a press release."

[Steve Hayes]

Post by the softrat

Post by Steve Hayes
The fates were personifications of impersonal destiny who sometimes even seem
to conftrol Zeus. You don't have to DO anything to get a destiny.

That is the more developed conception. The concept of the existence of
gods preceeds the concept of the existence of fate, moving from the
more concrete to the more abstract. At the most primitive, 'gods' are
just 'who-we-blame-for-stuff-we-don't-know-what-caused-it'.

Neverthelesa, a doom is not a fate, though the same thing could be both a doom
and a fate.

[Stan Brown]

"Christopher Kreuzer" <***@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
[many examples, snipped]

Some of those are indeed instances of justice, I agree. But I think
many are not matters of punishment but of public safety.

The Bree-landers exiled troublemakers not so much to punish them a
to keep their community safe. The hobbits called for Saruman to die
so that they would be safe from him. Faramir is commanded to slay
wanderers in Ithilien not because they are trespassing but because
they are presumptively spies. And so forth.

[TT Arvind]

Wes ðu Stan Brown hal!

Post by Stan Brown
The Bree-landers exiled troublemakers not so much to punish them a
to keep their community safe. The hobbits called for Saruman to die
so that they would be safe from him. Faramir is commanded to slay
wanderers in Ithilien not because they are trespassing but because
they are presumptively spies. And so forth.

I agree. A similar example from Sil. is the law of Turgon that all
strangers in Gondolin were to be slain. I do wonder what JRRT's opinion
on such rules for presumptively killing someone to keep a community safe
was, though.

--
Meneldil

Armadillo: To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by TT Arvind
Wes ðu Stan Brown hal!

Post by Stan Brown
The Bree-landers exiled troublemakers not so much to punish them a
to keep their community safe. The hobbits called for Saruman to die
so that they would be safe from him. Faramir is commanded to slay
wanderers in Ithilien not because they are trespassing but because
they are presumptively spies. And so forth.

I agree. A similar example from Sil. is the law of Turgon that all
strangers in Gondolin were to be slain.

I think it was just not allowed to leave. Hurin and Huor - though that
became an exception when they left. Maeglin and Eol: Maeglin chose to
stay, and Eol was chucked off a cliff for killing Aredhel.

No. Hang on. You are right:

"I will not debate with you. Dark Elf. By the swords of the Noldor alone
are your sunless woods defended. Your freedom to wander there wild you
owe to my kin; and but for them long since you would have laboured in
thraldom in the pits of Angband. And here I am King; and whether you
will it or will it not, my doom is law. This choice only is given to
you: to abide here, or to die here; and so also for your son." (Turgon
speaking to Eol, Of Maeglin, The Silmarillion)

Turgon is described as stern. Holding his staff of doom no less!

Post by TT Arvind
I do wonder what JRRT's
opinion on such rules for presumptively killing someone to keep a
community safe was, though.

I think there is another example when it is implied that Thingol will
slay Beren:

"[Luthien] would reveal nothing, until he swore an oath to her that he
would neither slay Beren nor imprison him. [...] [Thingol later says:]
'Can you show reason why my power should not be laid on you [Beren] in
heavy punishment for your insolence and folly?' [...] [Beren gives a
proud reply and Thingol and the elves react thus:] Then silence fell
upon the hall, for those that stood there were astounded and afraid, and
they thought that Beren would be slain. But Thingol spoke slowly,
saying: 'Death you have earned with these words; and death you should
find suddenly, had I not sworn an oath in haste; of which I repent...'"
(Of Beren and Luthien, The Silmarillion)

OK. That's not really an example of presumptive killing to keep the
realm safe. But it is probably fair to say that all such examples (in
Rohan, Gondor, Doriath, Gondolin) are because the realm is at war.

As for Tolkien's opinion, is it reflected in his writings where we see
at least two exceptions to this rule? Eomer and Faramir allow Aragorn
and Frodo to go free. Maybe Tolkien is saying that cases should be
judged on an individual basis (see also the example of Beregond)?

I still find the case of Turgon and Eol to be a bit OTT. And Thingol as
well. But maybe that is because LotR is 'nicer' than the 'harsh'
Silmarillion?

Christopher

[TT Arvind]

Wes ðu Christopher Kreuzer hal!

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"I will not debate with you. Dark Elf. By the swords of the Noldor alone
are your sunless woods defended. Your freedom to wander there wild you
owe to my kin; and but for them long since you would have laboured in
thraldom in the pits of Angband. And here I am King; and whether you
will it or will it not, my doom is law. This choice only is given to
you: to abide here, or to die here; and so also for your son." (Turgon
speaking to Eol, Of Maeglin, The Silmarillion)

And even more so a little earlier, when the guards tell Turgid of Eel's
arrival, and say that they have not slain him as as the law commands.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
As for Tolkien's opinion, is it reflected in his writings where we see
at least two exceptions to this rule? Eomer and Faramir allow Aragorn
and Frodo to go free. Maybe Tolkien is saying that cases should be
judged on an individual basis (see also the example of Beregond)?

Fair enough, but the fact remains that these cases are exceptions to the
rule, and it is the rule that I personally find a little harsh, even if
it was made in wartime.

[Jim Deutch]

Post by TT Arvind
And even more so a little earlier, when the guards tell Turgid of Eel's
arrival, and say that they have not slain him as as the law commands.

Die, Turgid Eels! Your bloated, slimy form disgusts me!

Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)

[TT Arvind]

Wes ðu Jim Deutch hal!

Post by Jim Deutch

Post by TT Arvind
And even more so a little earlier, when the guards tell Turgid of Eel's
arrival, and say that they have not slain him as as the law commands.

Die, Turgid Eels! Your bloated, slimy form disgusts me!

Aaugh! Death to spellcheckers!

[Count Menelvagor]

Post by TT Arvind
Wes ðu Jim Deutch hal!

Post by Jim Deutch

Post by TT Arvind
And even more so a little earlier, when the guards tell Turgid of Eel's
arrival, and say that they have not slain him as as the law commands.

Die, Turgid Eels! Your bloated, slimy form disgusts me!

Aaugh! Death to spellcheckers!

are we supposed to believe a spellchecker did that? yeah right.

the eel's tail has grown long indeed.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Count Menelvagor

Post by TT Arvind
Wes ðu Jim Deutch hal!

Post by Jim Deutch

Post by TT Arvind
And even more so a little earlier, when the guards tell Turgid of
Eel's arrival, and say that they have not slain him as as the law
commands.

Die, Turgid Eels! Your bloated, slimy form disgusts me!

Aaugh! Death to spellcheckers!

are we supposed to believe a spellchecker did that? yeah right.
the eel's tail has grown long indeed.

So it is Eol's spirit hanging around Caradhras? :-)

[Dirk Thierbach]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
As for Tolkien's opinion, is it reflected in his writings where we see
at least two exceptions to this rule?

I think Tolkien is imitating the general style of the sagas etc. here,
where judgements (and their consequences wrt. the fate/doom of the
persons involved) are more prominent. And I guess by looking at the
later consequences that some of these judgements have, you can find
out at least a bit about his opinions on them.

- Dirk

[Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
I still find the case of Turgon and Eol to be a bit OTT. And Thingol as
well. But maybe that is because LotR is 'nicer' than the 'harsh'
Silmarillion?

I think a number of things are going on here. Aredhel was
a Noldorin lady, and killing a Noldorin lady was perhaps even
less excusable than killing a regular old Noldo (or Sinda).
Also, Aredhel was Turgon's sister, so he may have been
influenced by that in his decision. Finally, I think it would
have been inconsistent with Turgon's fatal flaw (pride) to have
him keep around in Gondolin someone who had sort of gotten the
better of him and would not bow to his dominion.

Story-externally, I think Tolkien wanted a backstory to
explain how Maeglin, arguably the most evil Elf in history, got
the way he was. Seeing your parents both die violently before
your eyes, getting cursed by your father, ending up trapped in a
city where you know no one, and falling in love with your cousin
is a pretty good setup for that. :-)

--Jamie. (a Dover edition designed for years of use!)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)

[McREsq]

Post by Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message
Story-externally, I think Tolkien wanted a backstory to
explain how Maeglin, arguably the most evil Elf in history, got
the way he was.

Let's not forget Galadriel, the leather dominatrix of Lorien.

Russ

[Morgoth's Curse]

On 13 Oct 2004 20:38:31 GMT, ***@privacy.net (Jamie Andrews; real
address @ bottom of message) wrote:

[snip]

Post by Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message
Story-externally, I think Tolkien wanted a backstory to
explain how Maeglin, arguably the most evil Elf in history, got
the way he was. Seeing your parents both die violently before
your eyes, getting cursed by your father, ending up trapped in a
city where you know no one, and falling in love with your cousin
is a pretty good setup for that. :-)

I would certainly argue against Maeglin being the most evil Elf ever.
Surely that distinction belongs to Feanor who slaughtered his own kin
when they refused to help him and then abandoned his own family to
perish when he burned the ships after landing in Middle-earth.
Maeglin is certainly infamous because of his treachery, but it should
be remembered that he betrayed Gondolin in fear of his life and
because he hated Tuor. It should also be remembered that he had
served Turgon honorably for many, many years and that he had fought
valiantly against the armies of Morgoth at the Fifth Battle. Indeed,
it was largely due to the quality of weapons that Maeglin and his
followers had forged that Gondolin was able to defend itself so well
and exact a fearsome price for its conquest.

Morgoth's Curse

[AC]

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 04:52:00 GMT,

Post by Morgoth's Curse
[snip]

Post by Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message
Story-externally, I think Tolkien wanted a backstory to
explain how Maeglin, arguably the most evil Elf in history, got
the way he was. Seeing your parents both die violently before
your eyes, getting cursed by your father, ending up trapped in a
city where you know no one, and falling in love with your cousin
is a pretty good setup for that. :-)

I would certainly argue against Maeglin being the most evil Elf ever.
Surely that distinction belongs to Feanor who slaughtered his own kin
when they refused to help him and then abandoned his own family to
perish when he burned the ships after landing in Middle-earth.
Maeglin is certainly infamous because of his treachery, but it should
be remembered that he betrayed Gondolin in fear of his life and
because he hated Tuor.

Well, I'd also argue that Feanor was completely nuts by the time of the
Kinslaying. If I was his lawyer, I'd be pleading insanity.

Post by Morgoth's Curse
It should also be remembered that he had
served Turgon honorably for many, many years and that he had fought
valiantly against the armies of Morgoth at the Fifth Battle. Indeed,
it was largely due to the quality of weapons that Maeglin and his
followers had forged that Gondolin was able to defend itself so well
and exact a fearsome price for its conquest.

It's hard to measure extreme crimes. Feanor was a loonie-toon, in love with
his own works and grief-stricken by the murder of his father. Maeglin had
his traumas, but to betray Gondolin to the chief enemy of Noldor was a
wicked act that probably lead to far more deaths than the Kinslaying.

[Huan the hound]

Post by AC
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 04:52:00 GMT,

[snip]

Post by AC

Post by Morgoth's Curse

Post by Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message
explain how Maeglin, arguably the most evil Elf in history, got

[snip]

Post by AC

Post by Morgoth's Curse
I would certainly argue against Maeglin being the most evil Elf ever.

[snip]

Post by AC
Maeglin had
his traumas, but to betray Gondolin to the chief enemy of Noldor was a
wicked act that probably lead to far more deaths than the Kinslaying.

Is there more to the Maeglin story than I've read in _the Sil._?
Something in the half of _Letters_ I haven't read, or any of HoME? From
what I read in _the Sil._ about the fall of Gondolin, Maeglin was guilty
of straying too far from Gondolin, caving in when captured by Morgoth,
and wanting Idril. Is there more than this to his story, causing
people to number him among the worst Elves?

[Count Menelvagor]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
I still find the case of Turgon and Eol to be a bit OTT. And Thingol as
well. But maybe that is because LotR is 'nicer' than the 'harsh'
Silmarillion?

the ethos of LOTR does seem more humane than Sil. perhaps partly a
matter of Sil's archaism.

the elves in Sil are gits.

[Yuk Tang]

Post by Count Menelvagor

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
I still find the case of Turgon and Eol to be a bit OTT. And
Thingol as well. But maybe that is because LotR is 'nicer' than
the 'harsh' Silmarillion?

the ethos of LOTR does seem more humane than Sil. perhaps partly a
matter of Sil's archaism.
the elves in Sil are gits.

The humanism of the New Testament versus the blood 'n' guts of the Old.

[Shanahan]

Post by Yuk Tang

Post by Count Menelvagor

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
I still find the case of Turgon and Eol to be a bit OTT. And
Thingol as well. But maybe that is because LotR is 'nicer'
than the 'harsh' Silmarillion?

the ethos of LOTR does seem more humane than Sil. perhaps
partly a matter of Sil's archaism.
the elves in Sil are gits.

The humanism of the New Testament versus the blood 'n' guts of
the Old.

Greek tragedy versus medieval morality plays. Yup.

Ciaran S.
--
"Much human ingenuity has gone into finding the ultimate Before.
The current state of knowledge can be summarized thus:
In the beginning, there was nothing, which exploded.
- t. pratchett

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Count Menelvagor

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
I still find the case of Turgon and Eol to be a bit OTT. And Thingol
as well. But maybe that is because LotR is 'nicer' than the 'harsh'
Silmarillion?

the ethos of LOTR does seem more humane than Sil. perhaps partly a
matter of Sil's archaism.

I wonder whether it was an age thing? Tolkien had written out his
doom-laden mythology earlier on in his life, and then, with the
experience of age, was able to write a moving and humane story in LotR.
I may be over-generalising though.

Post by Count Menelvagor
the elves in Sil are gits.

Except Finrod Felagund. But yes, the story in Silm is a lot more about
Elves than the story in LotR. So in Silm we see the Elves, warts and
all. In LotR they are a fading people, and they just sing and act wise
all the time, and then go sailing West...

Christopher

[Stan Brown]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Count Menelvagor
the elves in Sil are gits.

I believe and hope that this remark was mostly in jest.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Except Finrod Felagund.

He's the biggest exception, I agree, but there are others even if we
don't count Lúthien because she was only half an Elf.

Fingolfin is, I think, truly noble. He humbles himself before the
Valar to reconcile with his brother, when as far as we know the
fault is on the other side: "Half-brother in blood, full brother in
heart will I be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief
divide us." And in Middle-earth, when he could most likely have
conquered Doriath by force of arms, instead he took all the less
desirable (and more dangerous) uninhabited places to the north.

Then there's Beleg Strongbow, who not only for friendship's sake but
to right a wrong went seeking after Turin through danger, and was
killed for his trouble.

But I agree, some of the major players don't come off too well:
Thingol of course, who never did master his temper and was
eventually killed because of it; Turgon, who ended up having his
realm destroyed while contributing nothing to the wars; Feanor
himself, of course, driven by pride. Some were worse than gits, like
Caranthir and Eol.

[Yuk Tang]

Post by Stan Brown
Thingol of course, who never did master his temper and was
eventually killed because of it; Turgon, who ended up having his
realm destroyed while contributing nothing to the wars; Feanor
himself, of course, driven by pride. Some were worse than gits, like
Caranthir and Eol.

Any details on how Caranthir got his nickname? Whilst uncaring at
first, he does soften towards the Haladin after they were nearly wiped
out by Orcs. And the Silm and UT don't tell us how he's worse than the
likes of Celegorm and Curufin.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Yuk Tang

Some were worse than gits, like Caranthir and Eol.

Any details on how Caranthir got his nickname? Whilst uncaring at
first, he does soften towards the Haladin after they were nearly wiped
out by Orcs. And the Silm and UT don't tell us how he's worse than the
likes of Celegorm and Curufin.

OOOPPPPPSSSS!

I was thinking of Celegorm and Curufin, specifically of their
efforts to kidnap Luthien and then their attempted murder that ended
up getting Beren instead. Rereading the incident just now, I get the
impression that Curufin was the prime mover in those evil deeds, but
Celegorm was what we call in modern language an accessory after the
fact.

Caranthir does come across as a git, less likeable than Thingol at
_his_ most haughty, and that's saying something. And as you say, he
does seem to grow more kindly toward Men with the passage of time.
He doesn't seem to be downright evil, aside from the matter of the
Oath and his joining in the attack on Dior.

[Yuk Tang]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Yuk Tang

Some were worse than gits, like Caranthir and Eol.

Any details on how Caranthir got his nickname? Whilst uncaring at
first, he does soften towards the Haladin after they were nearly
wiped out by Orcs. And the Silm and UT don't tell us how he's
worse than the likes of Celegorm and Curufin.

OOOPPPPPSSSS!
I was thinking of Celegorm and Curufin, specifically of their
efforts to kidnap Luthien and then their attempted murder that
ended up getting Beren instead. Rereading the incident just now, I
get the impression that Curufin was the prime mover in those evil
deeds, but Celegorm was what we call in modern language an
accessory after the fact.

IIRC it was Celegorm who was the main instigator in the above, but
Curufin who did the most in driving out Finrod from Nargothrond.

Post by Stan Brown
Caranthir does come across as a git, less likeable than Thingol at
_his_ most haughty, and that's saying something. And as you say,
he does seem to grow more kindly toward Men with the passage of
time. He doesn't seem to be downright evil, aside from the matter
of the Oath and his joining in the attack on Dior.

The encyclopedia area of thefreedictionary.com, presumably with help
from members of this forum (judging by the detail of their entries),
says that Caranthir was the cruellest of the seven. Since most of
their other entries pretty much reflect the consensus of the Tolkien
forums, I was wondering if this comment had its origins in one of the
HoMEs I haven't read.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Caranthir

While he had the misfortune of taking Ulfang under his wing, the fact
that Men were willing to serve under him (plus IIRC some ties with
Dwarves) is a step up from the other two Cs.

The entry for Dior gives this:

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Dior%20(Middle-earth)

'Dior was slain by the Sons of Fëanor during the Sack of Menegroth to
recapture the Silmaril he inherited from his parents. His sons Eluréd
and Elurín were captured during the assault and left to die in the
wood of Doriath by Caranthir the Dark, one of the sons of Fëanor.
Elwing, however, escaped with the remnant of the Elves of Doriath to
the Havens of Sirion, where she wedded Eärendil the Mariner and they
together sought pardon and aid from the Valar.'

The Silm says that it's his servants, rather than Caranthir himself
(he was possibly dead by then, depending on how one reads it), who
did the deed.

Btw, thefreedictionary also mentions that Amras, in one (the latest?)
version of the stories, was accidentally burned with the ships at
Losgar, that subsequent mentions of the two A brothers should have
been replaced with Amrod alone. Any details?

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Amras

[TT Arvind]

Wes ðu Yuk Tang hal!

Post by Yuk Tang
The encyclopedia area of thefreedictionary.com, presumably with help
from members of this forum (judging by the detail of their entries),
says that Caranthir was the cruellest of the seven.

I think Tolkien says in the Sil (in connection with the returning
Noldor's first dealings with Doriath) that Caranthir was the harshest of
the seven and the most prone to anger. Perhaps the 'cruellest' comes
from there.

[Yuk Tang]

Post by TT Arvind
Wes ðu Yuk Tang hal!

Post by Yuk Tang
The encyclopedia area of thefreedictionary.com, presumably with
help from members of this forum (judging by the detail of their
entries), says that Caranthir was the cruellest of the seven.

I think Tolkien says in the Sil (in connection with the returning
Noldor's first dealings with Doriath) that Caranthir was the
harshest of the seven and the most prone to anger. Perhaps the
'cruellest' comes from there.

He accused the Finarfinians of being traitors to the Noldor, but that's
about it in the Silm.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Yuk Tang

Post by TT Arvind
Wes ðu Yuk Tang hal!

Post by Yuk Tang
The encyclopedia area of thefreedictionary.com, presumably with
help from members of this forum (judging by the detail of their
entries), says that Caranthir was the cruellest of the seven.

I think Tolkien says in the Sil (in connection with the returning
Noldor's first dealings with Doriath) that Caranthir was the
harshest of the seven and the most prone to anger. Perhaps the
'cruellest' comes from there.

He accused the Finarfinians of being traitors to the Noldor, but
that's about it in the Silm.

I've been racking my brains all evening, trying to think why I think
that the title or nickname was 'Caranthir the Cruel' (incorrect) rather
than 'Caranthir the Dark' (correct). I think I've been conflating
Caranthir with three other quotes (in descending order of influence):

1) "Caradhras the Cruel" (as Gimli tells us)

[Caranthir _sounds_ a bit like Caradhras]

2) "Gorthaur the Cruel" (Sauron)
3) "the cruel servants of Celegorm" (Silmarillion)

The index to 'The Silmarillion' says this:

"Caranthir: The fourth son of Feanor, called the Dark; 'the harshest of
the brothers and the most quick to anger'; ruled in Thargelion; slain in
the assault on Doriath."

Christopher

[Nathan Keedy]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"Caranthir: The fourth son of Feanor, called the Dark; 'the harshest of
the brothers and the most quick to anger'; ruled in Thargelion; slain in
the assault on Doriath."
Christopher

Speaking of the sons of Feanor, is it ever explicitly stated what
happens to Maglor after he casts his Silmaril into the sea? The Silm
says "thereafter he wandered ever upon the shores, singing in pain and
regret beside the waves," but how literally is "ever wandering" to be
interpreted? I'm sure this has been brought up before, but is there
any more information on this subject?

[AC]

On 17 Oct 2004 19:50:25 -0700,

Post by Nathan Keedy

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"Caranthir: The fourth son of Feanor, called the Dark; 'the harshest of
the brothers and the most quick to anger'; ruled in Thargelion; slain in
the assault on Doriath."
Christopher

Speaking of the sons of Feanor, is it ever explicitly stated what
happens to Maglor after he casts his Silmaril into the sea? The Silm
says "thereafter he wandered ever upon the shores, singing in pain and
regret beside the waves," but how literally is "ever wandering" to be
interpreted? I'm sure this has been brought up before, but is there
any more information on this subject?

Well, I really have my doubts that any of Feanor's sons would have sought
solace across the Sea, so my hunch is he's still wandering around, faded,
moaning and wailing.

[Jon Meltzer]

On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:21:43 -0400, Stan Brown

Post by Stan Brown
I was thinking of Celegorm and Curufin, specifically of their
efforts to kidnap Luthien and then their attempted murder that ended
up getting Beren instead.

Yes, charming pair of frat boys, aren't they?

[AC]

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:05:35 -0400,

Post by Stan Brown
Thingol of course, who never did master his temper and was
eventually killed because of it; Turgon, who ended up having his
realm destroyed while contributing nothing to the wars; Feanor
himself, of course, driven by pride. Some were worse than gits, like
Caranthir and Eol.

Perhaps Celeborn is actually a glimpse at what those old First Age Elves
were *really* like :-)

[the softrat]

Post by TT Arvind
I agree. A similar example from Sil. is the law of Turgon that all
strangers in Gondolin were to be slain. I do wonder what JRRT's opinion
on such rules for presumptively killing someone to keep a community safe
was, though.

He probably approved since he read it in an Anglo-Saxon law book.

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
God? I'm no God! God has MERCY!

[Stan Brown]

Post by TT Arvind
A similar example from Sil. is the law of Turgon that all
strangers in Gondolin were to be slain. I do wonder what JRRT's opinion
on such rules for presumptively killing someone to keep a community safe
was, though.

D we see any instance where the law is ever executed? All I can
think of is examples of people trying to make fair judgment despite
the law. Faramir didn't kill Frodo, Gollum, or Sam; Turgon didn't
kill Eol; etc.

[RoRowe]

Post by Stan Brown
D we see any instance where the law is ever executed? All I can
think of is examples of people trying to make fair judgment despite
the law.

I think the law allows a field commander to "presume" a trespasser is
a spy. However, a presumption is different from a guilty sentence. The
commander can listen to evidence that may rebut the presumption. If
the evidence is credible, the presumption no longer stands and the
offender is a mere trespasser.

This is how Eomer and Faramir handled the situation. Each had the
authority to execute their captives. But they choose not to because
after listening to their stories, they decided an execution was not in
order.

RR

[Yuk Tang]

Post by TT Arvind
Wes ðu Stan Brown hal!

Post by Stan Brown
The Bree-landers exiled troublemakers not so much to punish them
a to keep their community safe. The hobbits called for Saruman to
die so that they would be safe from him. Faramir is commanded to
slay wanderers in Ithilien not because they are trespassing but
because they are presumptively spies. And so forth.

I agree. A similar example from Sil. is the law of Turgon that
all strangers in Gondolin were to be slain. I do wonder what
JRRT's opinion on such rules for presumptively killing someone to
keep a community safe was, though.

None too positive, judging by how the treatment of Beleg by the outlaws
is portrayed.

[Troels Forchhammer]

Post by Stan Brown
[many examples, snipped]
Some of those are indeed instances of justice, I agree. But I think
many are not matters of punishment but of public safety.

Not sure that I'm ready to engage in a discussion of morality, but
still: are these truly separable when we're speaking of sentencing
wrong-doers? Are the motives of safety, revenge and 'poetic justice'
not all intertwined in punishing and our perception of justice?

Post by Stan Brown
The Bree-landers exiled troublemakers not so much to punish them
as to keep their community safe.

Being thrown out into the wild was definitely also a punishment, I'd
say.

Post by Stan Brown
The hobbits called for Saruman to die so that they would be safe
from him.

But also out of revenge, and as a punishment for his evil deeds.

Post by Stan Brown
Faramir is commanded to slay wanderers in Ithilien not because
they are trespassing but because they are presumptively spies.

That's a better example, but in that case there is no real proof that
these persons were actually trespassing with evil intent, so 'justice'
in the meaning of the punishment of those who have sinned wouldn't
really enter into the picture.

[Tar-Elenion]

<big snip>

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Can anyone think of other examples of justice, punishment, and capital
punishment (and maybe related mercy in justice) in any of Tolkien's
writings? Especially 'The Hobbit' and 'The Silmarillion'?

The Hobbit:
Then the elves put thongs on him [Thorin], and shut him in one of the
inmost caves with strong wooden doors, and left him. They gave him food
and drink, plenty of both, if not very fine; for Wood-elves were not
goblins, and were reasonably well-behaved even to their worst enemies,
when they captured them. The giant spiders were the only living things
that they had no mercy upon."

The Silmarillion:
"Then Eöl mounted his horse, saying: 'It is good, Lord Curufin, to find
a kinsman thus kindly at need. I will remember it when I return.' Then
Curufin looked darkly upon Eöl. 'Do not flaunt the title of your wife
before me,' he said. 'For those who steal the daughters of the Noldor
and wed them without gift or leave do not gain kinship with their kin. I
have given you leave to go. Take it, and be gone. By the laws of the
Eldar I may not slay you at this time. And this counsel I add: return
now to your dwelling in the darkness of Nan El-moth; for my heart warns
me that if you now pursue those who love you no more, never will you
return thither.'"

"'Lord,' he cried, 'the Guard have taken captive one that came by
stealth to the Dark Gate. Eöl he names himself, and he is a tall Elf,
dark and grim, of the kindred of the Sindar; yet he claims the Lady
Aredhel as his wife, and demands to be brought before you. His wrath is
great and he is hard to restrain; but we have not slain him as your law
commands.'"

"Then Turgon sat in his high seat holding his staff of doom, and in a
stem voice spoke: 'I will not debate with you. Dark Elf. By the swords
of the Noldor alone are your sunless woods defended. Your freedom to
wander there wild you owe to my kin; and but for them long since you
would have laboured in thraldom in the pits of Angband. And here I am
King; and whether you will it or will it not, my doom is law. This
choice only is given to you: to abide here, or to die here; and so also
for your son.'"

He is later executed by being thrown over the Caragdur.


"Then silence fell upon the hall, for those that stood there were
astounded and afraid, and they thought that Beren would be slain. But
Thingol spoke slowly, saying: 'Death you have earned with these words;
and death you should find suddenly, had I not sworn an oath in haste; of
which I repent, baseborn mortal, who in the realm of Morgoth has learnt
to creep in secret as his spies and thralls.'"

Unfinished Tales:

"'Then Voronwë will remember also the laws of his land,' said the voice.
'Since by command he went forth, he has the right to return. But not to
lead hither any stranger. By that deed his right is void, and he must be
led as a prisoner to the king's judgement. As for the stranger, he shall
be slain or held captive at the judgement of the Guard. Lead him hither
that I may judge.'"

Morgoth's Ring:

"The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if
beautiful) region of Beleriand. Morgoth was thus actually made captive
in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and
delivered to Námo Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and
eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed
like one of the Incarnates."

[TT Arvind]

Wes ðu Christopher Kreuzer hal!

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Can anyone think of other examples of justice, punishment, and capital
punishment (and maybe related mercy in justice) in any of Tolkien's
writings? Especially 'The Hobbit' and 'The Silmarillion'?

'In Arda Marred Justice is not Healing. Healing cometh only by suffering
and patience, and maketh no demand, not even for Justice. Justice worketh
only within the bonds of things as they are, accepting the marring of
Arda, and therefore though Justice is itself good and desireth no further
evil, it can but perpetuate the evil that was, and doth not prevent it
from the bearing of fruit in sorrow. Thus the Statute was just, but it
accepted Death and the severance of Finwë and Míriel, a thing unnatural
in Arda Unmarred, and therefore with reference to Arda Unmarred it was
unnatural and fraught with Death. The liberty that it gave was a lower
road that, if it led not still downwards, could not again ascend. But
Healing must retain ever the thought of Arda Unmarred, and if it cannot
ascend, must abide in patience. This is Hope which, I deem, is before all
else the virtue most fair in the Children of Eru, but cannot be commanded
to come when needed: patience must often long await it.'

(From /Laws and Customs of the Eldar/)