Discussion:
The End of the Fourth Age
(too old to reply)
Paul S. Person
2015-08-12 23:06:34 UTC
Permalink
As it happens, I am re-reading /THOTH/ and, on page 447/448 (first
volume), Rateliff discusses JRRT's plans for /The Lost Road/.

As I think is consistent with the parts he completed, he planned to
start in the present and then move backwards through time. This, then,
should not be controversial.

What is interesting is that (p 448) JRRT planned to include episodes
from "periods known to archaeology but for which all legends and
stories have been lost the Ice Age, the era of Paleolithic
cave-paintings). and finally beyond, into his own imagined prehistory
(Beleriand and finally Numinor)".

Which would seem to imply that the Fourth Age /preceded the
Paleolothic/ (that is, the Old Stone Age). Since the culture of /LOTR/
is, surely, far past that of any Stone Age, a considerable decline
must have occurred from the Fourth Age to the Paleolithic.

It looks like my suggestion, that the Fourth Age was ended by a Giant
Space Rock that changed /everything/, may not have been so completely
off-base as may have appeared when I proposed it.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Jerry Friedman
2015-08-13 04:14:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S. Person
As it happens, I am re-reading /THOTH/ and, on page 447/448 (first
volume), Rateliff discusses JRRT's plans for /The Lost Road/.
As I think is consistent with the parts he completed, he planned to
start in the present and then move backwards through time. This, then,
should not be controversial.
What is interesting is that (p 448) JRRT planned to include episodes
from "periods known to archaeology but for which all legends and
stories have been lost the Ice Age, the era of Paleolithic
cave-paintings). and finally beyond, into his own imagined prehistory
(Beleriand and finally Numinor)".
Which would seem to imply that the Fourth Age /preceded the
Paleolothic/ (that is, the Old Stone Age). Since the culture of /LOTR/
is, surely, far past that of any Stone Age, a considerable decline
must have occurred from the Fourth Age to the Paleolithic.
It looks like my suggestion, that the Fourth Age was ended by a Giant
Space Rock that changed /everything/, may not have been so completely
off-base as may have appeared when I proposed it.
It looked completely on-base to me. I think it was always clear that
technology had collapsed sometime after /LotR/. Paul Kocher suggested
in /Master of Middle-Earth/ that /TH/ and /LOTR/ might have taken place
in an interglacial period, with the cold lingering at Forochel, but your
quotation suggests it was even older.
--
Jerry Friedman
Wayne Brown
2015-08-13 12:01:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul S. Person
As it happens, I am re-reading /THOTH/ and, on page 447/448 (first
volume), Rateliff discusses JRRT's plans for /The Lost Road/.
As I think is consistent with the parts he completed, he planned to
start in the present and then move backwards through time. This, then,
should not be controversial.
What is interesting is that (p 448) JRRT planned to include episodes
from "periods known to archaeology but for which all legends and
stories have been lost the Ice Age, the era of Paleolithic
cave-paintings). and finally beyond, into his own imagined prehistory
(Beleriand and finally Numinor)".
Which would seem to imply that the Fourth Age /preceded the
Paleolothic/ (that is, the Old Stone Age). Since the culture of /LOTR/
is, surely, far past that of any Stone Age, a considerable decline
must have occurred from the Fourth Age to the Paleolithic.
It looks like my suggestion, that the Fourth Age was ended by a Giant
Space Rock that changed /everything/, may not have been so completely
off-base as may have appeared when I proposed it.
It looked completely on-base to me. I think it was always clear that
technology had collapsed sometime after /LotR/. Paul Kocher suggested
in /Master of Middle-Earth/ that /TH/ and /LOTR/ might have taken place
in an interglacial period, with the cold lingering at Forochel, but your
quotation suggests it was even older.
I've always believed, ever since I read LOTR somewhere around 1969,
that the events in Middle-Earth took place so far in the past that
all traces of those civilizations had vanished. At the very least
the idea of silverware must have been lost and reinvented, since I
seriously doubt that those spoons that Bilbo and Lobelia fought over
were inspired by anything Marco Polo brought back from China. :-)
--
F. Wayne Brown <***@bellsouth.net>

ur sag9-ga ur-tur-še3 ba-an-kur9
"A dog that is played with turns into a puppy." (Sumerian proverb)
Michael Graf
2015-08-20 08:56:49 UTC
Permalink
Hi!
Post by Wayne Brown
I've always believed, ever since I read LOTR somewhere around 1969,
that the events in Middle-Earth took place so far in the past that
all traces of those civilizations had vanished. At the very least
the idea of silverware must have been lost and reinvented, since I
seriously doubt that those spoons that Bilbo and Lobelia fought over
were inspired by anything Marco Polo brought back from China. :-)
That's true, but reinvention (or parallel development) wouldn't be unusual.
Yet I don't think that all remains of the Four Ages had been wiped out
in latter years. I always thought that Tolkien regarded the greek, roman
and nordic pantheon as "falsified" myths, which were originally inspired
by the "true myth" of the Valar as guardians of Arda.
And additionally I don't think that the name for Númenor after the
downfall in Quenya is purely unintentional (Atalantë)

Michael
Paul S. Person
2015-08-16 17:08:20 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Aug 2015 22:14:26 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul S. Person
As it happens, I am re-reading /THOTH/ and, on page 447/448 (first
volume), Rateliff discusses JRRT's plans for /The Lost Road/.
As I think is consistent with the parts he completed, he planned to
start in the present and then move backwards through time. This, then,
should not be controversial.
What is interesting is that (p 448) JRRT planned to include episodes
from "periods known to archaeology but for which all legends and
stories have been lost the Ice Age, the era of Paleolithic
cave-paintings). and finally beyond, into his own imagined prehistory
(Beleriand and finally Numinor)".
Which would seem to imply that the Fourth Age /preceded the
Paleolothic/ (that is, the Old Stone Age). Since the culture of /LOTR/
is, surely, far past that of any Stone Age, a considerable decline
must have occurred from the Fourth Age to the Paleolithic.
It looks like my suggestion, that the Fourth Age was ended by a Giant
Space Rock that changed /everything/, may not have been so completely
off-base as may have appeared when I proposed it.
It looked completely on-base to me. I think it was always clear that
technology had collapsed sometime after /LotR/. Paul Kocher suggested
in /Master of Middle-Earth/ that /TH/ and /LOTR/ might have taken place
in an interglacial period, with the cold lingering at Forochel, but your
quotation suggests it was even older.
Some time ago, there was a poster who felt that JRRT was describing an
alternate reality, not our own past. One of his points was that there
were no archaeological remains from the Fourth Age.

Although I have read /THOTH/, /HOME/, and Letters, it had not occurred
to me before that JRRT himself apparently recognized this problem and
solved it by putting the Fourth Age /before/ the Paleolithic, meaning
it could have been a very long time ago. That he himself intended to
create a legendary history of Britain was, of course, quite clear.

Obviously, I agree that something happened to produce the downfall of
the Fourth Age society (or successor) and erase the mighty works
and/or geography associated with it. But that a Giant Space Rock
hitting the Earth in 1 Million Years BC was responsible is, at best,
speculative and might even be regarded as whimsical. Other
possibilities, no doubt, exist.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Taemon
2015-08-19 21:26:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S. Person
Obviously, I agree that something happened to produce the downfall of
the Fourth Age society (or successor) and erase the mighty works
and/or geography associated with it. But that a Giant Space Rock
hitting the Earth in 1 Million Years BC was responsible is, at best,
speculative and might even be regarded as whimsical. Other
possibilities, no doubt, exist.
As far as I know, Earth hasn't been hit by a Giant Space Rock one
million years ago. Matters of fantasy aside.
Stan Brown
2015-08-20 00:28:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Taemon
Post by Paul S. Person
Obviously, I agree that something happened to produce the downfall of
the Fourth Age society (or successor) and erase the mighty works
and/or geography associated with it. But that a Giant Space Rock
hitting the Earth in 1 Million Years BC was responsible is, at best,
speculative and might even be regarded as whimsical. Other
possibilities, no doubt, exist.
As far as I know, Earth hasn't been hit by a Giant Space Rock one
million years ago. Matters of fantasy aside.
One word: Tunguska.

Of course, it depends on your definition of "giant", but if I recall
correctly, that rock would have wiped out a major city if it had hit
in the vicinity of one instead of in the wastes of Siberia.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Michael Graf
2015-08-20 08:41:45 UTC
Permalink
Hi!
Post by Stan Brown
Post by Taemon
Post by Paul S. Person
Obviously, I agree that something happened to produce the downfall of
the Fourth Age society (or successor) and erase the mighty works
and/or geography associated with it. But that a Giant Space Rock
hitting the Earth in 1 Million Years BC was responsible is, at best,
speculative and might even be regarded as whimsical. Other
possibilities, no doubt, exist.
As far as I know, Earth hasn't been hit by a Giant Space Rock one
million years ago. Matters of fantasy aside.
One word: Tunguska.
Of course, it depends on your definition of "giant", but if I recall
correctly, that rock would have wiped out a major city if it had hit
in the vicinity of one instead of in the wastes of Siberia.
It's rather improbable that something hit the ground as there are no
signs of a crater to be seen. One theory states that an explosion took
place several kilometres above the ground, yet there are still some
geophysical theories.

Michael
Taemon
2015-08-22 22:00:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan Brown
Post by Taemon
Post by Paul S. Person
Obviously, I agree that something happened to produce the downfall of
the Fourth Age society (or successor) and erase the mighty works
and/or geography associated with it. But that a Giant Space Rock
hitting the Earth in 1 Million Years BC was responsible is, at best,
speculative and might even be regarded as whimsical. Other
possibilities, no doubt, exist.
As far as I know, Earth hasn't been hit by a Giant Space Rock one
million years ago. Matters of fantasy aside.
One word: Tunguska.
Of course, it depends on your definition of "giant", but if I recall
correctly, that rock would have wiped out a major city if it had hit
in the vicinity of one instead of in the wastes of Siberia.
But it didn't. Sorry, but I just don't buy into these "LOTR was
real"-would-be explanations. It wasn't. Let's not try to make it into
more than it was. It wouldn't do it justice.
John W Kennedy
2015-08-22 22:58:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Taemon
Post by Stan Brown
Post by Taemon
Post by Paul S. Person
Obviously, I agree that something happened to produce the downfall of
the Fourth Age society (or successor) and erase the mighty works
and/or geography associated with it. But that a Giant Space Rock
hitting the Earth in 1 Million Years BC was responsible is, at best,
speculative and might even be regarded as whimsical. Other
possibilities, no doubt, exist.
As far as I know, Earth hasn't been hit by a Giant Space Rock one
million years ago. Matters of fantasy aside.
One word: Tunguska.
Of course, it depends on your definition of "giant", but if I recall
correctly, that rock would have wiped out a major city if it had hit
in the vicinity of one instead of in the wastes of Siberia.
But it didn't. Sorry, but I just don't buy into these "LOTR was
real"-would-be explanations. It wasn't. Let's not try to make it into
more than it was. It wouldn't do it justice.
But it's part of the fun. Go read Sayers' masterpiece, "The Dates in
'The Red-Headed League'".
--
John W Kennedy
"Though a Rothschild you may be
In your own capacity,
As a Company you've come to utter sorrow--
But the Liquidators say,
'Never mind--you needn't pay,'
So you start another company to-morrow!"
-- Sir William S. Gilbert. "Utopia Limited"
Paul S. Person
2015-08-20 17:17:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Taemon
Post by Paul S. Person
Obviously, I agree that something happened to produce the downfall of
the Fourth Age society (or successor) and erase the mighty works
and/or geography associated with it. But that a Giant Space Rock
hitting the Earth in 1 Million Years BC was responsible is, at best,
speculative and might even be regarded as whimsical. Other
possibilities, no doubt, exist.
As far as I know, Earth hasn't been hit by a Giant Space Rock one
million years ago. Matters of fantasy aside.
I believe I said it was "at best speculative and might even be
regarded as whimsical". So something else happened.

Sadly, JRRT never clarified his thinking on just what happened --
except (it appears) to locate it prior to the Old Stone Age.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
tony
2015-10-13 23:55:14 UTC
Permalink
"Paul S. Person" wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

As it happens, I am re-reading /THOTH/ and, on page 447/448 (first
volume), Rateliff discusses JRRT's plans for /The Lost Road/.

As I think is consistent with the parts he completed, he planned to
start in the present and then move backwards through time. This, then,
should not be controversial.

What is interesting is that (p 448) JRRT planned to include episodes
from "periods known to archaeology but for which all legends and
stories have been lost the Ice Age, the era of Paleolithic
cave-paintings). and finally beyond, into his own imagined prehistory
(Beleriand and finally Numinor)".

Which would seem to imply that the Fourth Age /preceded the
Paleolothic/ (that is, the Old Stone Age). Since the culture of /LOTR/
is, surely, far past that of any Stone Age, a considerable decline
must have occurred from the Fourth Age to the Paleolithic.

Tony replied:

Since Tolkien apparently believed that the gap in time between the Fall of
Barad-dûr and our Days was approximately 6000 years [The Letters of J.R.R.
Tolkien, 283 (#211)] , does this mean that he believed the Paleolithic
period (currently dated at around 300,000 to 30,000 years ago) occurred less
than 6000 years ago?
Paul S. Person
2015-10-14 17:16:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S. Person
As it happens, I am re-reading /THOTH/ and, on page 447/448 (first
volume), Rateliff discusses JRRT's plans for /The Lost Road/.
As I think is consistent with the parts he completed, he planned to
start in the present and then move backwards through time. This, then,
should not be controversial.
What is interesting is that (p 448) JRRT planned to include episodes
from "periods known to archaeology but for which all legends and
stories have been lost the Ice Age, the era of Paleolithic
cave-paintings). and finally beyond, into his own imagined prehistory
(Beleriand and finally Numinor)".
Which would seem to imply that the Fourth Age /preceded the
Paleolothic/ (that is, the Old Stone Age). Since the culture of /LOTR/
is, surely, far past that of any Stone Age, a considerable decline
must have occurred from the Fourth Age to the Paleolithic.
Since Tolkien apparently believed that the gap in time between the Fall of
Barad-dûr and our Days was approximately 6000 years [The Letters of J.R.R.
Tolkien, 283 (#211)] , does this mean that he believed the Paleolithic
period (currently dated at around 300,000 to 30,000 years ago) occurred less
than 6000 years ago?
Not having known him personally, I have no idea what he actually
believed. He may, of course, have believed one thing at one time and
one at another. He certainly flopped around a bit on the origin of the
Orcs.

As /THOTH/ pp 447/48 states, /HOME V/ pp 77/78 contains an outline
suggesting these additional chapters:
Lombard story?
a Norse story of ship-burial (Vinland)
an English story -- of the man who got onto the Straight Road
a Tuatha-de-Danaan story, or Tir-nan-Og
painted caves
the Ice Age -- great figures in ice
Before the Ice Age: the Galdor story

a second outline ends with the Prehistoric North: old kings found
buried in the ice.

The Galdor story may or may not be related to some of his latest work
in /HOME XII/; Galdor/Agaldor was to be a non-Numenorean prophet who
foretold the Atalante and the coming of the Numenorians, so here the
events of the books clearly precede the Ice Age.

So, by "palaeolithic", Rateliff (author of /THOTH/) may have meant
"pre-Ice Age".
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
tony
2015-10-14 22:33:56 UTC
Permalink
"Paul S. Person" wrote in message news:

<snip>

Not having known him personally, I have no idea what he actually
believed. He may, of course, have believed one thing at one time and
one at another. He certainly flopped around a bit on the origin of the
Orcs.

As /THOTH/ pp 447/48 states, /HOME V/ pp 77/78 contains an outline
suggesting these additional chapters:
Lombard story?
a Norse story of ship-burial (Vinland)
an English story -- of the man who got onto the Straight Road
a Tuatha-de-Danaan story, or Tir-nan-Og
painted caves
the Ice Age -- great figures in ice
Before the Ice Age: the Galdor story

a second outline ends with the Prehistoric North: old kings found
buried in the ice.

The Galdor story may or may not be related to some of his latest work
in /HOME XII/; Galdor/Agaldor was to be a non-Numenorean prophet who
foretold the Atalante and the coming of the Numenorians, so here the
events of the books clearly precede the Ice Age.

So, by "palaeolithic", Rateliff (author of /THOTH/) may have meant
"pre-Ice Age".
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."

Tony replied:

“The History of the Hobbit” sounds like an interesting book that I would
like to read. As far as I know, the only specific dating of the “The Lord
of the Rings” available is the estimate Tolkien provided in the letter I
cited. The idea that “The Lord of the Rings” takes place before the Ice Age
seems inconsistent with the date of 4000 BC unless Tolkien believed that the
Ice Age took place after 4000 BC. This seems unlikely to me, but I suppose
it is possible because I recall that in the 1600's biblical scholar James
Ussher estimated the total age of Earth to be about 6000 years old.

However, Tolkien was writing in the 1900's so he was likely to be aware of
more updated estimates of the Earth’s age and the probable date of the Ice
Age. I wish I had a copy of the 1906 Encyclopedia Britannica so I could see
the kind of scientific information that would be readily available to an
educated man like Tolkien in the early 1900's. It could be, as you suggest,
that Tolkien vacillated regarding his placement of the events of “Lord of
the Rings” in Earth’s past. If we were to follow the line of reasoning you
presented, then we might estimate the events of “The Lord of the Rings” to
have taken place before 70,000 BC: the beginning of the last Ice Age.
John W Kennedy
2015-10-15 00:48:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S. Person
So, by "palaeolithic", Rateliff (author of /THOTH/) may have meant
"pre-Ice Age".
That is, in fact, more or less the original meaning of "palaeolithic",
ca. 1865.
--
John W Kennedy
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and
Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.
The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being
corrected."
-- G. K. Chesterton
Paul S. Person
2015-10-15 16:53:09 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:48:40 -0400, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Paul S. Person
So, by "palaeolithic", Rateliff (author of /THOTH/) may have meant
"pre-Ice Age".
That is, in fact, more or less the original meaning of "palaeolithic",
ca. 1865.
I suspected the two terms might be related. Rateliff appears to be
quite reliable.

It's nice to see something on rabt besides the "4830 Solutions" spam.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Paul S. Person
2015-10-15 16:51:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony
<snip>
So, by "palaeolithic", Rateliff (author of /THOTH/) may have meant
"pre-Ice Age".
(Note: you replied below the sig, so Agent did not copy your reply; I
have cut-and-pasted it here. In effect, you made /your/ reply a part
of /my/ sig. The "sig" is the bit following the "--".)
“The History of the Hobbit” sounds like an interesting book that I would
like to read.
It is in two volumes and fits quite well between volumes V and VI of
/HOME/.

It is very interesting, particularly on the question of how /TH/
relates to the rest of the legendarium (that is, the Silmarillion and
related works, in their mid-30's version).
As far as I know, the only specific dating of the “The Lord
of the Rings” available is the estimate Tolkien provided in the letter I
cited. The idea that “The Lord of the Rings” takes place before the Ice Age
seems inconsistent with the date of 4000 BC unless Tolkien believed that the
Ice Age took place after 4000 BC. This seems unlikely to me, but I suppose
it is possible because I recall that in the 1600's biblical scholar James
Ussher estimated the total age of Earth to be about 6000 years old.
Yes, 4004 BC. He even gave the month and day, IIRC.

Of course, this was (i suspect) /before/ the 6 year error in computing
the BC/AD divide was discovered.

I once tried to verify this, and it works -- up to a point. But before
Genesis 12 is reached, the vital data peters out, and you are left
with estimating how long each "generation" lasted.

Still, IIRC, you /can/ show that Methuselah died in the same year as
the Flood.
However, Tolkien was writing in the 1900's so he was likely to be aware of
more updated estimates of the Earth’s age and the probable date of the Ice
Age. I wish I had a copy of the 1906 Encyclopedia Britannica so I could see
the kind of scientific information that would be readily available to an
educated man like Tolkien in the early 1900's. It could be, as you suggest,
that Tolkien vacillated regarding his placement of the events of “Lord of
the Rings” in Earth’s past. If we were to follow the line of reasoning you
presented, then we might estimate the events of “The Lord of the Rings” to
have taken place before 70,000 BC: the beginning of the last Ice Age.
It occurred to me last night that, since the legendarium is set in NW
Europe/Britain, the Ice Age glaciers may have had some effect on both
the landscape and the various monuments created by the Men of the
Third and Fourth Ages.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
tony
2015-10-23 21:45:40 UTC
Permalink
"Paul S. Person" wrote in message news:

<snip>

It occurred to me last night that, since the legendarium is set in NW
Europe/Britain, the Ice Age glaciers may have had some effect on both
the landscape and the various monuments created by the Men of the
Third and Fourth Ages.

<snip>

Tony replied:

I agree. Although an Orc, Troll or Ent might find it impossible to destroy
Minas Tirith, Orthanc or Helm's Deep, glaciers could possess the weight and
force necessary to undermine the foundations of these structures and erase
evidence for their existence from the historical record. However, I wonder
how the "Red Book of Westmarch" could have survived through the Ice Age
until the present when no other artifacts of that type managed to do so.
Paul S. Person
2015-10-24 17:32:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony
<snip>
It occurred to me last night that, since the legendarium is set in NW
Europe/Britain, the Ice Age glaciers may have had some effect on both
the landscape and the various monuments created by the Men of the
Third and Fourth Ages.
<snip>
I agree. Although an Orc, Troll or Ent might find it impossible to destroy
Minas Tirith, Orthanc or Helm's Deep, glaciers could possess the weight and
force necessary to undermine the foundations of these structures and erase
evidence for their existence from the historical record. However, I wonder
how the "Red Book of Westmarch" could have survived through the Ice Age
until the present when no other artifacts of that type managed to do so.
Excellent question.

Sadly, I can't think of an answer.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Bill O'Meally
2015-10-25 11:37:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S. Person
Post by tony
However, I wonder
how the "Red Book of Westmarch" could have survived through the Ice Age
until the present when no other artifacts of that type managed to do so.
Excellent question.
Sadly, I can't think of an answer.
Perhaps the artifacts are there. Archaeologists just haven't discovered
them yet.
--
Bill O'Meally
Michael Ikeda
2015-10-25 12:30:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S. Person
Post by tony
<snip>
It occurred to me last night that, since the legendarium is set
in NW Europe/Britain, the Ice Age glaciers may have had some
effect on both the landscape and the various monuments created
by the Men of the Third and Fourth Ages.
<snip>
I agree. Although an Orc, Troll or Ent might find it impossible
to destroy Minas Tirith, Orthanc or Helm's Deep, glaciers could
possess the weight and force necessary to undermine the
foundations of these structures and erase evidence for their
existence from the historical record. However, I wonder how the
"Red Book of Westmarch" could have survived through the Ice Age
until the present when no other artifacts of that type managed
to do so.
Excellent question.
Sadly, I can't think of an answer.
Gondor was one of the many places visited by the Doctor in the
course of his travels. On one of his visits he made a copy of the
Red Book.,,

:-)
Paul S. Person
2015-10-25 16:44:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Ikeda
Post by Paul S. Person
Post by tony
<snip>
It occurred to me last night that, since the legendarium is set
in NW Europe/Britain, the Ice Age glaciers may have had some
effect on both the landscape and the various monuments created
by the Men of the Third and Fourth Ages.
<snip>
I agree. Although an Orc, Troll or Ent might find it impossible
to destroy Minas Tirith, Orthanc or Helm's Deep, glaciers could
possess the weight and force necessary to undermine the
foundations of these structures and erase evidence for their
existence from the historical record. However, I wonder how the
"Red Book of Westmarch" could have survived through the Ice Age
until the present when no other artifacts of that type managed to do so.
Excellent question.
Sadly, I can't think of an answer.
Gondor was one of the many places visited by the Doctor in the
course of his travels. On one of his visits he made a copy of the
Red Book.,,
:-)
Or (thought of this last night, long after my first response) a copy
of the Red Book of Westmarch somehow made its way to Tol Eressea, and
a copy of that was brought back by Eriol and added to the library of
the monastery which cared for him after his return.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Louis Epstein
2015-12-20 04:46:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S. Person
Post by Michael Ikeda
Post by Paul S. Person
Post by tony
<snip>
It occurred to me last night that, since the legendarium is set
in NW Europe/Britain, the Ice Age glaciers may have had some
effect on both the landscape and the various monuments created
by the Men of the Third and Fourth Ages.
<snip>
I agree. Although an Orc, Troll or Ent might find it impossible
to destroy Minas Tirith, Orthanc or Helm's Deep, glaciers could
possess the weight and force necessary to undermine the
foundations of these structures and erase evidence for their
existence from the historical record. However, I wonder how the
"Red Book of Westmarch" could have survived through the Ice Age
until the present when no other artifacts of that type managed to do so.
Excellent question.
Sadly, I can't think of an answer.
Gondor was one of the many places visited by the Doctor in the
course of his travels. On one of his visits he made a copy of the
Red Book.,,
:-)
Or (thought of this last night, long after my first response) a copy
of the Red Book of Westmarch somehow made its way to Tol Eressea, and
a copy of that was brought back by Eriol and added to the library of
the monastery which cared for him after his return.
Or Smith of Wootton Major picked one up in Faerie?

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Paul S. Person
2015-12-20 18:15:00 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 04:46:08 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by Paul S. Person
Post by Michael Ikeda
Post by Paul S. Person
Post by tony
<snip>
It occurred to me last night that, since the legendarium is set
in NW Europe/Britain, the Ice Age glaciers may have had some
effect on both the landscape and the various monuments created
by the Men of the Third and Fourth Ages.
<snip>
I agree. Although an Orc, Troll or Ent might find it impossible
to destroy Minas Tirith, Orthanc or Helm's Deep, glaciers could
possess the weight and force necessary to undermine the
foundations of these structures and erase evidence for their
existence from the historical record. However, I wonder how the
"Red Book of Westmarch" could have survived through the Ice Age
until the present when no other artifacts of that type managed to do so.
Excellent question.
Sadly, I can't think of an answer.
Gondor was one of the many places visited by the Doctor in the
course of his travels. On one of his visits he made a copy of the
Red Book.,,
:-)
Or (thought of this last night, long after my first response) a copy
of the Red Book of Westmarch somehow made its way to Tol Eressea, and
a copy of that was brought back by Eriol and added to the library of
the monastery which cared for him after his return.
Or Smith of Wootton Major picked one up in Faerie?
I am /finally/ reading /LOTR/ again and, wow, does it leave the films
in the dust!

The Preface also suggests at least two versions of the Red Book were
known to JRRT. And that many more existed.

Perhaps they were /all/ treated as mathoms and buried in iron chests
(a la /I, Claudius/ and /Claudius the God/).
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Louis Epstein
2016-01-03 09:11:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S. Person
On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 04:46:08 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by Paul S. Person
Post by Michael Ikeda
Post by Paul S. Person
Post by tony
<snip>
It occurred to me last night that, since the legendarium is set
in NW Europe/Britain, the Ice Age glaciers may have had some
effect on both the landscape and the various monuments created
by the Men of the Third and Fourth Ages.
<snip>
I agree. Although an Orc, Troll or Ent might find it impossible
to destroy Minas Tirith, Orthanc or Helm's Deep, glaciers could
possess the weight and force necessary to undermine the
foundations of these structures and erase evidence for their
existence from the historical record. However, I wonder how the
"Red Book of Westmarch" could have survived through the Ice Age
until the present when no other artifacts of that type managed to do so.
Excellent question.
Sadly, I can't think of an answer.
Gondor was one of the many places visited by the Doctor in the
course of his travels. On one of his visits he made a copy of the
Red Book.,,
:-)
Or (thought of this last night, long after my first response) a copy
of the Red Book of Westmarch somehow made its way to Tol Eressea, and
a copy of that was brought back by Eriol and added to the library of
the monastery which cared for him after his return.
Or Smith of Wootton Major picked one up in Faerie?
I am /finally/ reading /LOTR/ again and, wow, does it leave the films
in the dust!
The Preface also suggests at least two versions of the Red Book were
known to JRRT. And that many more existed.
My reading is that he had a later one that referred to earlier ones.
Post by Paul S. Person
Perhaps they were /all/ treated as mathoms and buried in iron chests
(a la /I, Claudius/ and /Claudius the God/).
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Paul S. Person
2016-01-03 18:21:38 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 3 Jan 2016 09:11:47 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
<cutting to the chase>
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by Paul S. Person
The Preface also suggests at least two versions of the Red Book were
known to JRRT. And that many more existed.
My reading is that he had a later one that referred to earlier ones.
I just reread it, and it still reads, to me, like a survey of source
documents: this one was found here and has this, that one was found
there and has that, etc, etc.

Also, it mentions several separate works not in any edition of the Red
Book as such, from which (presumably) the info on pipeweed, on old
Hobbit terms and their relation to Rohirric, the tale of Aragorn and
Arwen, the Tale of Years, the calendrical information, and the
/Akallabeth/ were derived. Were these all in your "later one" as well?
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Jerry Friedman
2016-01-22 05:40:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S. Person
On Sun, 3 Jan 2016 09:11:47 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
<cutting to the chase>
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by Paul S. Person
The Preface also suggests at least two versions of the Red Book were
known to JRRT. And that many more existed.
My reading is that he had a later one that referred to earlier ones.
I just reread it, and it still reads, to me, like a survey of source
documents: this one was found here and has this, that one was found
there and has that, etc, etc.
Also, it mentions several separate works not in any edition of the Red
Book as such, from which (presumably) the info on pipeweed, on old
Hobbit terms and their relation to Rohirric,
I agree that those were in treatises by Merry. Maybe they survived
separately, or maybe they or information in them was added to the Red Book.
Post by Paul S. Person
the tale of Aragorn and Arwen,
In Findegil's copy of the Thain's copy of the Red Book.
Post by Paul S. Person
the Tale of Years,
I don't think it's clear whether that was originally in a copy of the
Red Book or in a separate book.
Post by Paul S. Person
the calendrical information,
Presumably from another treatise by Merry.
Post by Paul S. Person
and the /Akallabeth/ were derived.
I imagine the /Akallabeth/ was in Bilbo's /Translations from the
Elvish/, three volumes that went with the original Red Book and survived
in Findegil's copy of the Thain's Book.
Post by Paul S. Person
Were these all in your "later one" as well?
--
Jerry Friedman
Stan Brown
2016-01-22 12:22:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't think it's clear whether that was originally in a copy of the
Red Book or in a separate book.
I've never understood what exactly was in the Red Book and what was
not. I don't even know if that was the same as the book that Frodo
gave to Sam in the last chapter of LotR. But wasn't there supposed
to be a group of three volumes? (And I don't think that group, if I'm
correct in remembering its existence, was meant to be three volumes
of Frodo's LotR story.)

Is there an official list somewhere? What was in the Red Book, and
how did that relate to Bilbo's /Translations from the Elvish/?
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://BrownMath.com/
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
Tolkien letters FAQ: http://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Paul S. Person
2016-01-22 18:26:04 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Jan 2016 07:22:30 -0500, Stan Brown
Post by Stan Brown
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't think it's clear whether that was originally in a copy of the
Red Book or in a separate book.
I've never understood what exactly was in the Red Book and what was
not. I don't even know if that was the same as the book that Frodo
gave to Sam in the last chapter of LotR. But wasn't there supposed
to be a group of three volumes? (And I don't think that group, if I'm
correct in remembering its existence, was meant to be three volumes
of Frodo's LotR story.)
Is there an official list somewhere? What was in the Red Book, and
how did that relate to Bilbo's /Translations from the Elvish/?
The Preface to /LOTR/ might almost be such a list, except, of course,
that it has more the form of a survey of the various /different/
versions of the Red Book and of other useful writings.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Jerry Friedman
2016-01-22 18:45:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan Brown
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't think it's clear whether that was originally in a copy of the
Red Book or in a separate book.
I've never understood what exactly was in the Red Book and what was
not. I don't even know if that was the same as the book that Frodo
gave to Sam in the last chapter of LotR.
It is, according to the Note on the Shire Records.
Post by Stan Brown
But wasn't there supposed
to be a group of three volumes? (And I don't think that group, if I'm
correct in remembering its existence, was meant to be three volumes
of Frodo's LotR story.)
It wasn't. Bilbo's /Translations from the Elvish/ were in three volumes,
also bound in red leather.
Post by Stan Brown
Is there an official list somewhere? What was in the Red Book, and
how did that relate to Bilbo's /Translations from the Elvish/?
Bilbo gave Frodo a red book containing Bilbo's diary (that is, not a novel
like /The Hobbit/), and Frodo "almost filled" it with his narrative of
the War of the Ring, which we know nothing about except that it comprised
eighty chapters, the same number as /The Lord of the Rings/. That's
the Red Book. It was kept at Westmarch with the /Translations from the
Elvish/ and a fifth volume of "commentaries, genealogies, and various
other matter".

There can't have been much else in the one-volume Red Book, but I believe
some of the poems in /The Adventures of Tom Bombadil/ are supposed to
come from it. I don't think there's a canonical list of contents, but
I haven't read most of Tolkien's posthumously published writings.

The Thain's Book and Findegil's copy of it were copies of the Red Book
that contained the /Translations from the Elvish/, and the fictional
Tolkien clearly used a copy of (a copy of a copy of...) Findegil's
copy, though he doesn't say so explicitly.

I can't tell whether the Thain's book contained the fifth volume, the
one with hobbit trivia (sorry). If not, there must have been another
manuscript tradition that reached the fictional Tolkien somehow.

I agree that Tolkien is vague about these things, and I think it's strange.
I think I understand why he's vague about "dark shapes" and what elves eat
and such--he wants readers to use their imaginations and suit themselves.
Does it also create an enjoyable atmosphere for us not to know whether
the Thain's book contained the fifth volume, or the fictional Tolkien
saw two versions of the Red Book, or he saw one version that had combined
the Thain's and Westmarch versions and maybe Merry's books or maybe not?
He could answer that question in a sentence while still being vague about
how he gained access to the books.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jeff Urs
2016-01-23 17:43:36 UTC
Permalink
Did you find out anything about the sources from Tolkien?
Not much -- only hints and riddles.
Did you ask about the fifth volume?
We didn't discuss it.
You should have. I am sure it is very important.
In that case I am sure he would have refused to explain it!
And now leave me in peace for a bit! I don't want to answer
a string of questions while I am reading RABT. I want to think!
--
Jeff
Paul S. Person
2016-01-23 18:19:31 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Jan 2016 10:45:05 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Stan Brown
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't think it's clear whether that was originally in a copy of the
Red Book or in a separate book.
I've never understood what exactly was in the Red Book and what was
not. I don't even know if that was the same as the book that Frodo
gave to Sam in the last chapter of LotR.
It is, according to the Note on the Shire Records.
Post by Stan Brown
But wasn't there supposed
to be a group of three volumes? (And I don't think that group, if I'm
correct in remembering its existence, was meant to be three volumes
of Frodo's LotR story.)
It wasn't. Bilbo's /Translations from the Elvish/ were in three volumes,
also bound in red leather.
Post by Stan Brown
Is there an official list somewhere? What was in the Red Book, and
how did that relate to Bilbo's /Translations from the Elvish/?
Bilbo gave Frodo a red book containing Bilbo's diary (that is, not a novel
like /The Hobbit/), and Frodo "almost filled" it with his narrative of
the War of the Ring, which we know nothing about except that it comprised
eighty chapters, the same number as /The Lord of the Rings/. That's
the Red Book. It was kept at Westmarch with the /Translations from the
Elvish/ and a fifth volume of "commentaries, genealogies, and various
other matter".
There can't have been much else in the one-volume Red Book, but I believe
some of the poems in /The Adventures of Tom Bombadil/ are supposed to
come from it. I don't think there's a canonical list of contents, but
I haven't read most of Tolkien's posthumously published writings.
The Thain's Book and Findegil's copy of it were copies of the Red Book
that contained the /Translations from the Elvish/, and the fictional
Tolkien clearly used a copy of (a copy of a copy of...) Findegil's
copy, though he doesn't say so explicitly.
I can't tell whether the Thain's book contained the fifth volume, the
one with hobbit trivia (sorry). If not, there must have been another
manuscript tradition that reached the fictional Tolkien somehow.
I agree that Tolkien is vague about these things, and I think it's strange.
I think I understand why he's vague about "dark shapes" and what elves eat
and such--he wants readers to use their imaginations and suit themselves.
Does it also create an enjoyable atmosphere for us not to know whether
the Thain's book contained the fifth volume, or the fictional Tolkien
saw two versions of the Red Book, or he saw one version that had combined
the Thain's and Westmarch versions and maybe Merry's books or maybe not?
He could answer that question in a sentence while still being vague about
how he gained access to the books.
Actually, he doesn't sound /vague/ (to me) at all.

He sounds (to me) as if he were reviewing the well-known locations of
well-known materials. Like any ancient work with multiple manuscripts
scattered about.

IOW, part of the pretense that these events actually happened (and,
sadly, it is but a pretense) is that the various editions of the Red
Book and other records still exist and the JRRT is merely a scholar
working with them in his professional capacity, extracting a few bits
and pieces and converting them into a form more likely to appeal to
the general public than a literal translation would.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Stan Brown
2016-01-24 15:24:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Bilbo gave Frodo a red book containing Bilbo's diary (that is, not a novel
like /The Hobbit/), and Frodo "almost filled" it with his narrative of
the War of the Ring, which we know nothing about except that it comprised
eighty chapters, the same number as /The Lord of the Rings/. That's
the Red Book. It was kept at Westmarch with the /Translations from the
Elvish/ and a fifth volume of "commentaries, genealogies, and various
other matter".
There can't have been much else in the one-volume Red Book, but I believe
some of the poems in /The Adventures of Tom Bombadil/ are supposed to
come from it. I don't think there's a canonical list of contents, but
I haven't read most of Tolkien's posthumously published writings.
Thanks, Jerry. I somehow thought the Red Book was in five volumes,
not that it was one volume of a five-volume set.

[snippage]
Post by Jerry Friedman
I agree that Tolkien is vague about these things, and I think it's strange.
I think I understand why he's vague about "dark shapes" and what elves eat
and such--he wants readers to use their imaginations and suit themselves.
Does it also create an enjoyable atmosphere for us not to know whether
the Thain's book contained the fifth volume, or the fictional Tolkien
saw two versions of the Red Book, or he saw one version that had combined
the Thain's and Westmarch versions and maybe Merry's books or maybe not?
He could answer that question in a sentence while still being vague about
how he gained access to the books.
I wonder if he couldn't make up his mind. In that case we'd probably
have a bunch of variant readings in HoME, but I don't have the
appropriate volumes.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://BrownMath.com/
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
Tolkien letters FAQ: http://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Paul S. Person
2016-01-24 18:08:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 24 Jan 2016 10:24:19 -0500, Stan Brown
<***@fastmail.fm> wrote:

<The Red Book: contents not specified by JRRT>
Post by Stan Brown
I wonder if he couldn't make up his mind. In that case we'd probably
have a bunch of variant readings in HoME, but I don't have the
appropriate volumes.
I recently read HOME XII. Nothing occurred to my alleged memory, but
pulling it out found quite a few references. Of course, since HOME XII
contains the backhistory of the Prologue and Appendices, this should
not be surprising.

I did not check them all. By chance, as we say in Middle-Earth, I
checked out the last (p 262) and found that it referred to a footnote
to a section which quotes material which was in the First Edition
Appendix A (p 258) to the effect that the parts in quotes (describing
the Kin-Strife) were "actual extracts from the longer annals and tales
that are found in the Red Book".

So there is some evidence for the use of "Red Book" in a generic
sense, as I would hardly expect detailed "annals and tales" of the
Kin-Strife of the Southern Kingdom to be part of the "Translations
from the Elvish". Or even found in Rivendell: Gondor would be the
obvious place for such records to originate.

I don't recall anything as definitive as a detailed list of the Red
Book's contents -- except for the description in the Prologue. Where
it entered with the Second Edition (which, IIRC, was the
lightly-emended version JRRT prepared for his USA publishers so that
they could secure a USA copyright, his fans having made that
impossible with the First Edition, IIRC).

I didn't check, but I suspect that the Red Book of Westmarch is
credited as the source of the Appendices, whether the material matches
the statements in the Prologue or not. So, once again, I would suspect
a generic use of the term.

Perhaps this would help: I own a copy of the American Bible Society
edition of the New Testament in Greek (from the mid-60s). If the
scholarly apparatus (footnotes) are ignored, this can be regarded as
"generic", as it is based on various ancient Greek manuscripts,
located in various places, which do not all agree with each other at
each point.

A hypothetical New Testament scholar, when talking about the Greek New
Testament, might well list those manuscripts, their locations, and
their contents, and note the differences when addressing a scholarly
audience; but, when addressing a popular audience, he (or she) would
probably treat it as a single work and omit the details. And that is
what I suspect JRRT is doing with the Red Book: details when he is
being a scholar, generic reference when he is being popular.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Jerry Friedman
2016-01-25 04:53:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S. Person
On Sun, 24 Jan 2016 10:24:19 -0500, Stan Brown
<The Red Book: contents not specified by JRRT>
Post by Stan Brown
I wonder if he couldn't make up his mind. In that case we'd probably
have a bunch of variant readings in HoME, but I don't have the
appropriate volumes.
I recently read HOME XII. Nothing occurred to my alleged memory, but
pulling it out found quite a few references. Of course, since HOME XII
contains the backhistory of the Prologue and Appendices, this should
not be surprising.
I did not check them all. By chance, as we say in Middle-Earth, I
checked out the last (p 262) and found that it referred to a footnote
to a section which quotes material which was in the First Edition
Appendix A (p 258) to the effect that the parts in quotes (describing
the Kin-Strife) were "actual extracts from the longer annals and tales
that are found in the Red Book".
So there is some evidence for the use of "Red Book" in a generic
sense, as I would hardly expect detailed "annals and tales" of the
Kin-Strife of the Southern Kingdom to be part of the "Translations
from the Elvish". Or even found in Rivendell: Gondor would be the
obvious place for such records to originate.
In the Note on the Shire Records, it does indeed appear that that
material came from manuscripts written in Gondor and collected at Great
Smials. How they got to Tolkien is of course not mentioned.
Post by Paul S. Person
I don't recall anything as definitive as a detailed list of the Red
Book's contents -- except for the description in the Prologue. Where
it entered with the Second Edition (which, IIRC, was the
lightly-emended version JRRT prepared for his USA publishers so that
they could secure a USA copyright, his fans having made that
impossible with the First Edition, IIRC).
I didn't check, but I suspect that the Red Book of Westmarch is
credited as the source of the Appendices, whether the material matches
the statements in the Prologue or not. So, once again, I would suspect
a generic use of the term.
In the second edition, it's just "actual extracts from longer annals and
tales". Also, the first paragraph of Appendix A is, "Concerning the
sources for most of the matter contained in the following Appendices,
especially A to D, see the note at the end of the Prologue. The section
A III, /Durin's Folk/, was probably derived from Gimli the Dwarf, who
maintained his friendship with Peregrin and Meriadoc and met them again
many times in Gondor and Rohan."

I didn't know about the specific mention of the Red Book in the first
edition. It seems that Tolkien decided to make things less definite.
Post by Paul S. Person
Perhaps this would help: I own a copy of the American Bible Society
edition of the New Testament in Greek (from the mid-60s). If the
scholarly apparatus (footnotes) are ignored, this can be regarded as
"generic", as it is based on various ancient Greek manuscripts,
located in various places, which do not all agree with each other at
each point.
A hypothetical New Testament scholar, when talking about the Greek New
Testament, might well list those manuscripts, their locations, and
their contents, and note the differences when addressing a scholarly
audience; but, when addressing a popular audience, he (or she) would
probably treat it as a single work and omit the details. And that is
what I suspect JRRT is doing with the Red Book: details when he is
being a scholar, generic reference when he is being popular.
Well, the Note on the Shire Records strikes me as being on the scholarly
side.
--
Jerry Friedman
John W Kennedy
2016-01-25 15:41:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S. Person
On Sun, 24 Jan 2016 10:24:19 -0500, Stan Brown
<The Red Book: contents not specified by JRRT>
Post by Stan Brown
I wonder if he couldn't make up his mind. In that case we'd probably
have a bunch of variant readings in HoME, but I don't have the
appropriate volumes.
I recently read HOME XII. Nothing occurred to my alleged memory, but
pulling it out found quite a few references. Of course, since HOME XII
contains the backhistory of the Prologue and Appendices, this should
not be surprising.
I did not check them all. By chance, as we say in Middle-Earth, I
checked out the last (p 262) and found that it referred to a footnote
to a section which quotes material which was in the First Edition
Appendix A (p 258) to the effect that the parts in quotes (describing
the Kin-Strife) were "actual extracts from the longer annals and tales
that are found in the Red Book".
So there is some evidence for the use of "Red Book" in a generic
sense, as I would hardly expect detailed "annals and tales" of the
Kin-Strife of the Southern Kingdom to be part of the "Translations
from the Elvish". Or even found in Rivendell: Gondor would be the
obvious place for such records to originate.
I don't recall anything as definitive as a detailed list of the Red
Book's contents -- except for the description in the Prologue. Where
it entered with the Second Edition (which, IIRC, was the
lightly-emended version JRRT prepared for his USA publishers so that
they could secure a USA copyright, his fans having made that
impossible with the First Edition, IIRC).
Not the fans. Houghton-Mifflin had put imported Allen & Unwin sheets in
American bindings, which violated one of the barbaric provisions of the
then US copyright law.

And the revisions were not so light. A new Foreword completely replaced
the original, omitting the suggestion that Hobbits are still to be
found in England, if one knows where to look, and that Tolkien had
received his source material from them. I don't know how much this was
because Tolkien changed his mind, and how much because the new Foreword
was written to address the copyright situation, and therefore needed to
acknowledge that the story was Tolkien's invention; the "Red Book"
fiction was incompatible with that. Two more significant changes were
the addition of the one-paragraph summary of the Silmarillion proper at
the beginning of Appendix A (the first edition began with "There were
three unions of the Eldar and the Edail", and the indices, which had
been promised in the First Edition, but could not be created in time to
be printed.
Post by Paul S. Person
I didn't check, but I suspect that the Red Book of Westmarch is
credited as the source of the Appendices, whether the material matches
the statements in the Prologue or not. So, once again, I would suspect
a generic use of the term.
Perhaps this would help: I own a copy of the American Bible Society
edition of the New Testament in Greek (from the mid-60s). If the
scholarly apparatus (footnotes) are ignored, this can be regarded as
"generic", as it is based on various ancient Greek manuscripts,
located in various places, which do not all agree with each other at
each point.
A hypothetical New Testament scholar, when talking about the Greek New
Testament, might well list those manuscripts, their locations, and
their contents, and note the differences when addressing a scholarly
audience; but, when addressing a popular audience, he (or she) would
probably treat it as a single work and omit the details. And that is
what I suspect JRRT is doing with the Red Book: details when he is
being a scholar, generic reference when he is being popular.
Normally, a title like "The Red Book of Westmarch" applies to a unique
manuscript -- more akin to the Codex Sinaiticus than to the Western
Text of Acts. (Tolkien was almost certainly thinking of the Red Book of
Hergest.)
--
John W Kennedy
"Give up vows and dogmas, and fixed things, and you may grow like That.
...you may come to think a blow bad, because it hurts, and not because
it humiliates. You may come to think murder wrong, because it is
violent, and not because it is unjust."
-- G. K. Chesterton. "The Ball and the Cross"
Paul S. Person
2016-01-25 17:52:59 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 10:41:42 -0500, John W Kennedy
<snippo>
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Paul S. Person
I don't recall anything as definitive as a detailed list of the Red
Book's contents -- except for the description in the Prologue. Where
it entered with the Second Edition (which, IIRC, was the
lightly-emended version JRRT prepared for his USA publishers so that
they could secure a USA copyright, his fans having made that
impossible with the First Edition, IIRC).
Not the fans. Houghton-Mifflin had put imported Allen & Unwin sheets in
American bindings, which violated one of the barbaric provisions of the
then US copyright law.
Thanks for the clarification. That makes sense, in a certain way: the
law (then) was that USA books had to actually be printed in the USA --
a sort of protective tariff for the printing industry, no doubt.
Post by John W Kennedy
And the revisions were not so light. A new Foreword completely replaced
the original, omitting the suggestion that Hobbits are still to be
found in England, if one knows where to look, and that Tolkien had
received his source material from them. I don't know how much this was
because Tolkien changed his mind, and how much because the new Foreword
was written to address the copyright situation, and therefore needed to
acknowledge that the story was Tolkien's invention; the "Red Book"
fiction was incompatible with that. Two more significant changes were
the addition of the one-paragraph summary of the Silmarillion proper at
the beginning of Appendix A (the first edition began with "There were
three unions of the Eldar and the Edail", and the indices, which had
been promised in the First Edition, but could not be created in time to
be printed.
As always, this stuff just gets more and more confusing the further I
get into it.

HOME XII contains the preface to the First Edition (pp 25-26). I guess
ome copying is in order (any tyopes are, of course, my own):

"This tale, which has grown to be almost a history of the great War of
the Ring, is drawn for the most part from the memoirs of the renowned
Hobbits, Bilbo and Frodo, as they are preserved in the Red Book of
Westmarch. This chief monument of Hobbit-lore is so called because it
was compiled, repeatedly copied, and enlarged and handed down in the
family of the Fairbairns of Westmarch, descended from that Master
Samwise of whom this tale has much to say.

"I have supplemented the account of the Red Book, in places, with
information derived from the surviving records of Gondor, notably the
Book of the Kings ..."

This could be read as implying that the Fairbairns (and so at least
some Hobbits) still exist, but then, the same could be said of Gondor,
which seems much less likely to have been intended. Note also that
/LOTR/ is here stated /explicitly/ to incorporate materials in
addition to the Red Book. Here we have again the scholarly viewpoint:
these sources are here, those sources are there.

HOME XII p 26 has this note:

"On one of his copies of the First Edition my father wrote besit it:
'This Foreword I should wish very much in any case to cancel.
Confusing (as it does) real personal matters with the "machinery" the
Tale is a serious mistake.'"

The "personal matters" are mostly about how long it took to write. So
JRRT's story is, not that he changed the Forward to comply with USA
copyright law, but that he replaced it because it mixed fancy with
reality in a way he now felt was inappropriate.

Confusing matters is that the Prologue was initially titled "Forward:
Concerning Hobbits", making "Forward" somewhat ambiguous. It is here
that Hobbits are treated as still existing, albeit very hard to find.
I don't think any claim to actually gotten the Red Book from them
(directly) is made, however.

The early versions also has "The Shirking" as the former (no longer
used by Bilbo's time) title of the Head of the House of Took.
"Shirking", of course, is for "Shire-king"; but also a joke, just as
the invention of golf in /TH/ was.
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Paul S. Person
I didn't check, but I suspect that the Red Book of Westmarch is
credited as the source of the Appendices, whether the material matches
the statements in the Prologue or not. So, once again, I would suspect
a generic use of the term.
Perhaps this would help: I own a copy of the American Bible Society
edition of the New Testament in Greek (from the mid-60s). If the
scholarly apparatus (footnotes) are ignored, this can be regarded as
"generic", as it is based on various ancient Greek manuscripts,
located in various places, which do not all agree with each other at
each point.
A hypothetical New Testament scholar, when talking about the Greek New
Testament, might well list those manuscripts, their locations, and
their contents, and note the differences when addressing a scholarly
audience; but, when addressing a popular audience, he (or she) would
probably treat it as a single work and omit the details. And that is
what I suspect JRRT is doing with the Red Book: details when he is
being a scholar, generic reference when he is being popular.
Normally, a title like "The Red Book of Westmarch" applies to a unique
manuscript -- more akin to the Codex Sinaiticus than to the Western
Text of Acts. (Tolkien was almost certainly thinking of the Red Book of
Hergest.)
Unless, of course, all versions were collectively referred to that way
by scholars.

Another example: /The Nag Hammadi Library/ contains a translation into
English of each of the works contained in the materials found buried
at (presumably) Nag Hammadi. But the introductory material makes it
plain that there are, generally, three copies of each work (they
actually appear to be of differing quality -- analogous to hardcover,
trade paperback, and mass-market paperback).

Each work, nonetheless, appears exactly once. In at least some cases,
materials from the different copies have been merged to produce the
longest and most complete translated version possible. IIRC, in one
case, "The Gospel of Mary", a version found elsewhere is also used.
That is because /The Nag Hammadi Library/ is intended for a lay
audience, not for scholars.

Editions of this material intended for scholars would, no doubt,
include all the versions of each work, in the original Coptic. With an
abundance of notes. And perhaps a sampling of the materials used to
stiffen the covers, which provide a date for the books by which they
must have been copied out (when they were composed is another story).
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Jerry Friedman
2016-01-25 04:42:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan Brown
Post by Jerry Friedman
Bilbo gave Frodo a red book containing Bilbo's diary (that is, not a novel
like /The Hobbit/), and Frodo "almost filled" it with his narrative of
the War of the Ring, which we know nothing about except that it comprised
eighty chapters, the same number as /The Lord of the Rings/. That's
the Red Book. It was kept at Westmarch with the /Translations from the
Elvish/ and a fifth volume of "commentaries, genealogies, and various
other matter".
There can't have been much else in the one-volume Red Book, but I believe
some of the poems in /The Adventures of Tom Bombadil/ are supposed to
come from it. I don't think there's a canonical list of contents, but
I haven't read most of Tolkien's posthumously published writings.
Thanks, Jerry. I somehow thought the Red Book was in five volumes,
not that it was one volume of a five-volume set.
I didn't say this clearly, but I think it can mean either the one volume
or the set.
Post by Stan Brown
[snippage]
Post by Jerry Friedman
I agree that Tolkien is vague about these things, and I think it's strange.
I think I understand why he's vague about "dark shapes" and what elves eat
and such--he wants readers to use their imaginations and suit themselves.
Does it also create an enjoyable atmosphere for us not to know whether
the Thain's book contained the fifth volume, or the fictional Tolkien
saw two versions of the Red Book, or he saw one version that had combined
the Thain's and Westmarch versions and maybe Merry's books or maybe not?
He could answer that question in a sentence while still being vague about
how he gained access to the books.
I wonder if he couldn't make up his mind. In that case we'd probably
have a bunch of variant readings in HoME, but I don't have the
appropriate volumes.
That's certainly possible.
--
Jerry Friedman
Paul S. Person
2016-01-22 18:24:39 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 22:40:30 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul S. Person
On Sun, 3 Jan 2016 09:11:47 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
<cutting to the chase>
and the /Akallabeth/ were derived.
I imagine the /Akallabeth/ was in Bilbo's /Translations from the
Elvish/, three volumes that went with the original Red Book and survived
in Findegil's copy of the Thain's Book.
IIRC, the Preface lists a separate work on Numenor.

This is not an Elvish tale; why would it be in the Translations?

Surely the archives of Gondor would be a better source.

But the point is that JRRT, in the Preface, does not appear, to me, to
be describing only a single copy of the Red Book, and appears to be
including a fair amount of additional material in his review.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Jerry Friedman
2016-01-22 20:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S. Person
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 22:40:30 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul S. Person
On Sun, 3 Jan 2016 09:11:47 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
<cutting to the chase>
and the /Akallabeth/ were derived.
I imagine the /Akallabeth/ was in Bilbo's /Translations from the
Elvish/, three volumes that went with the original Red Book and survived
in Findegil's copy of the Thain's Book.
IIRC, the Preface
(Prologue)
Post by Paul S. Person
lists a separate work on Numenor.
It says the library at Great Smials held a lot of manuscripts on Elendil
and his heirs, including the only materials in the Shire on the /rise/ of
Numenor.
Post by Paul S. Person
This is not an Elvish tale; why would it be in the Translations?
Because either Bilbo or Tolkien wasn't pedantic enough to write
/Translations from the Elvish and One from the Adunaic/--which is
similar to the reason that it's not about the Silmarils but was in
/The Silmarillion/.

However, I agree with you that I shouldn't have assumed it's from
the /Translations from the Elvish/. It could easily have had
another source, especially the material from Rivendell and Gondor
at Great Smials.
Post by Paul S. Person
Surely the archives of Gondor would be a better source.
I'd think Rivendell would be good too.
Post by Paul S. Person
But the point is that JRRT, in the Preface, does not appear, to me, to
be describing only a single copy of the Red Book,
Definitely. In the Fourth Age, most copies didn't have the
/Translations from the Elvish/, the material added to Findegil's copy in
Gondor, or the genealogical and similar material added in Westmarch.

It's possible that by the 20th century, the surviving copies had all
that stuff together.
Post by Paul S. Person
and appears to be
including a fair amount of additional material in his review.
Yep.
--
Jerry Friedman
John W Kennedy
2016-01-23 17:30:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Because either Bilbo or Tolkien wasn't pedantic enough to write
/Translations from the Elvish and One from the Adunaic/--which is
similar to the reason that it's not about the Silmarils but was in
/The Silmarillion/.
And because Tolkien knew that the very concept of a title, as an
auctorial and integral part of any work of literature, is a modern one.
Antique works generally have no title at all, e.g., the major French
work (Malory‘s magnum opus is mostly an abridgement of it) known as
“The Lancelot-Grail”, “The Pseudo-Map Cycle”, “The Prose Lancelot” (a
name used also for its central section, only), or “The Arthurian
Vulgate”. “Iliad” means only “the one about Troy”. Dante called his
great work, “The Comedy”.
--
John W Kennedy
"Those in the seat of power oft forget their failings and seek only the
obeisance of others! Thus is bad government born! Hold in your heart
that you and the people are one, human beings all, and good government
shall arise of its own accord! Such is the path of virtue!"
-- Kazuo Koike. "Lone Wolf and Cub: Thirteen Strings" (tr. Dana Lewis)
Jerry Friedman
2016-01-24 00:32:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Jerry Friedman
Because either Bilbo or Tolkien wasn't pedantic enough to write
/Translations from the Elvish and One from the Adunaic/--which is
similar to the reason that it's not about the Silmarils but was in
/The Silmarillion/.
And because Tolkien knew that the very concept of a title, as an
auctorial and integral part of any work of literature, is a modern one.
Antique works generally have no title at all, e.g., the major French
work (Malory‘s magnum opus is mostly an abridgement of it) known as “The
Lancelot-Grail”, “The Pseudo-Map Cycle”, “The Prose Lancelot” (a name
used also for its central section, only), or “The Arthurian Vulgate”.
“Iliad” means only “the one about Troy”. Dante called his great work,
“The Comedy”.
But Bilbo and Frodo did give titles to their narratives, on a title page
for that matter, and Bilbo attached enough importance to his title to
revise it several times.

I suppose this is consistent with the common observation that Gondor and
Rohan may be in the Middle Ages, but the Shire is in the 19th Century.
--
Jerry Friedman
John W Kennedy
2016-01-24 17:55:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Jerry Friedman
Because either Bilbo or Tolkien wasn't pedantic enough to write
/Translations from the Elvish and One from the Adunaic/--which is
similar to the reason that it's not about the Silmarils but was in
/The Silmarillion/.
And because Tolkien knew that the very concept of a title, as an
auctorial and integral part of any work of literature, is a modern one.
Antique works generally have no title at all, e.g., the major French
work (Malory‘s magnum opus is mostly an abridgement of it) known as “The
Lancelot-Grail”, “The Pseudo-Map Cycle”, “The Prose Lancelot” (a name
used also for its central section, only), or “The Arthurian Vulgate”.
“Iliad” means only “the one about Troy”. Dante called his great work,
“The Comedy”.
But Bilbo and Frodo did give titles to their narratives, on a title
page for that matter, and Bilbo attached enough importance to his title
to revise it several times.
I suppose this is consistent with the common observation that Gondor
and Rohan may be in the Middle Ages, but the Shire is in the 19th
Century.
Yup.
--
John W Kennedy
"...when you're trying to build a house of cards, the last thing you
should do is blow hard and wave your hands like a madman."
-- Rupert Goodwins
Paul S. Person
2016-01-23 18:13:11 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Jan 2016 12:09:04 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul S. Person
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 22:40:30 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul S. Person
On Sun, 3 Jan 2016 09:11:47 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
<cutting to the chase>
and the /Akallabeth/ were derived.
I imagine the /Akallabeth/ was in Bilbo's /Translations from the
Elvish/, three volumes that went with the original Red Book and survived
in Findegil's copy of the Thain's Book.
IIRC, the Preface
(Prologue)
See, that's what happens when I don't go and get the book!
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul S. Person
lists a separate work on Numenor.
It says the library at Great Smials held a lot of manuscripts on Elendil
and his heirs, including the only materials in the Shire on the /rise/ of
Numenor.
"Only here [Great Smials] in the Shire were to be found extensive
materials for the history of Numenor and the arising of Sauron".

Not just the /rise/ of Numenor, but its /history/. Which is the
/Akallabeth/.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul S. Person
This is not an Elvish tale; why would it be in the Translations?
Because either Bilbo or Tolkien wasn't pedantic enough to write
/Translations from the Elvish and One from the Adunaic/--which is
similar to the reason that it's not about the Silmarils but was in
/The Silmarillion/.
However, I agree with you that I shouldn't have assumed it's from
the /Translations from the Elvish/. It could easily have had
another source, especially the material from Rivendell and Gondor
at Great Smials.
Post by Paul S. Person
Surely the archives of Gondor would be a better source.
I'd think Rivendell would be good too.
Post by Paul S. Person
But the point is that JRRT, in the Preface, does not appear, to me, to
be describing only a single copy of the Red Book,
Definitely. In the Fourth Age, most copies didn't have the
/Translations from the Elvish/, the material added to Findegil's copy in
Gondor, or the genealogical and similar material added in Westmarch.
It's possible that by the 20th century, the surviving copies had all
that stuff together.
Post by Paul S. Person
and appears to be
including a fair amount of additional material in his review.
Yep.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Jerry Friedman
2016-01-24 00:24:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S. Person
On Fri, 22 Jan 2016 12:09:04 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul S. Person
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 22:40:30 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul S. Person
On Sun, 3 Jan 2016 09:11:47 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein
<cutting to the chase>
and the /Akallabeth/ were derived.
I imagine the /Akallabeth/ was in Bilbo's /Translations from the
Elvish/, three volumes that went with the original Red Book and survived
in Findegil's copy of the Thain's Book.
IIRC, the Preface
(Prologue)
See, that's what happens when I don't go and get the book!
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul S. Person
lists a separate work on Numenor.
It says the library at Great Smials held a lot of manuscripts on Elendil
and his heirs, including the only materials in the Shire on the /rise/ of
Numenor.
"Only here [Great Smials] in the Shire were to be found extensive
materials for the history of Numenor and the arising of Sauron".
Not just the /rise/ of Numenor, but its /history/. Which is the
/Akallabeth/.
...

Things can go wrong even when I am looking at the book.
--
Jerry Friedman
Paul S. Person
2016-01-24 17:43:29 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 23 Jan 2016 17:24:46 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul S. Person
On Fri, 22 Jan 2016 12:09:04 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
<snip-a-lot>
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul S. Person
Post by Jerry Friedman
It says the library at Great Smials held a lot of manuscripts on Elendil
and his heirs, including the only materials in the Shire on the /rise/ of
Numenor.
"Only here [Great Smials] in the Shire were to be found extensive
materials for the history of Numenor and the arising of Sauron".
Not just the /rise/ of Numenor, but its /history/. Which is the
/Akallabeth/.
...
Things can go wrong even when I am looking at the book.
You are not alone. This time, I got lucky.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Louis Epstein
2015-12-20 04:43:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S. Person
Post by tony
<snip>
It occurred to me last night that, since the legendarium is set in NW
Europe/Britain, the Ice Age glaciers may have had some effect on both
the landscape and the various monuments created by the Men of the
Third and Fourth Ages.
<snip>
I agree. Although an Orc, Troll or Ent might find it impossible to destroy
Minas Tirith, Orthanc or Helm's Deep, glaciers could possess the weight and
force necessary to undermine the foundations of these structures and erase
evidence for their existence from the historical record. However, I wonder
how the "Red Book of Westmarch" could have survived through the Ice Age
until the present when no other artifacts of that type managed to do so.
Excellent question.
Sadly, I can't think of an answer.
As ever,I look at the lack of credible evidence for the M-E map having
been part of our world's past as proof that the Red Book,despite the
earnest beliefs of its translator,must have in fact come from another
dimension.

After all,we can't allow for the possibility of its being fictional.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
John W Kennedy
2015-10-25 21:09:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony
<snip>
It occurred to me last night that, since the legendarium is set in NW
Europe/Britain, the Ice Age glaciers may have had some effect on both
the landscape and the various monuments created by the Men of the
Third and Fourth Ages.
<snip>
I agree. Although an Orc, Troll or Ent might find it impossible to
destroy Minas Tirith, Orthanc or Helm's Deep, glaciers could possess
the weight and force necessary to undermine the foundations of these
structures and erase evidence for their existence from the historical
record. However, I wonder how the "Red Book of Westmarch" could have
survived through the Ice Age until the present when no other artifacts
of that type managed to do so.
Applying the first edition's Foreword, I suppose the thought was that
it had been passed down through the Hobbits who still live in England.
--
John W Kennedy
"...when you're trying to build a house of cards, the last thing you
should do is blow hard and wave your hands like a madman."
-- Rupert Goodwins
Stan Brown
2015-10-26 10:22:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Applying the first edition's Foreword, I suppose the thought was that
it had been passed down through the Hobbits who still live in England.
I think it would have had to be recopied a few times. Paper can be
preserved for centuries in very dry conditions, like the Dead Sea
Scrolls, but the English climate would be pretty tough on paper.

Unless the hobbits had learned some paper-preserving spell from the
Elves, ....
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://BrownMath.com/
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Louis Epstein
2015-12-20 04:48:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan Brown
Post by John W Kennedy
Applying the first edition's Foreword, I suppose the thought was that
it had been passed down through the Hobbits who still live in England.
I think it would have had to be recopied a few times. Paper can be
preserved for centuries in very dry conditions, like the Dead Sea
Scrolls, but the English climate would be pretty tough on paper.
Unless the hobbits had learned some paper-preserving spell from the
Elves, ....
Perhaps the original pages on which Findegil wrote his tome were
a very special kind of parchment.

(We have to assume that it is Findegil's copy that Tolkien translated,
not the original book written by Bilbo and kept in the Westmarch.
Else how would we know what was written on the fly-leaf?
This was of course a copy of the Thain's Book which was a copy of
the original,with various materials known in Gondor added).

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Paul S. Person
2015-10-26 16:34:39 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 25 Oct 2015 17:09:20 -0400, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by tony
<snip>
It occurred to me last night that, since the legendarium is set in NW
Europe/Britain, the Ice Age glaciers may have had some effect on both
the landscape and the various monuments created by the Men of the
Third and Fourth Ages.
<snip>
I agree. Although an Orc, Troll or Ent might find it impossible to
destroy Minas Tirith, Orthanc or Helm's Deep, glaciers could possess
the weight and force necessary to undermine the foundations of these
structures and erase evidence for their existence from the historical
record. However, I wonder how the "Red Book of Westmarch" could have
survived through the Ice Age until the present when no other artifacts
of that type managed to do so.
Applying the first edition's Foreword, I suppose the thought was that
it had been passed down through the Hobbits who still live in England.
Indeed.

Of course, they would have to survive the Ice Age.

And then there is the reduction of culture to pre-paleolothic: no
agriculture, no iron, and probably no horticulture either. Burrows dug
by hand and stick. No glass for the windows. No tables or chairs, no
plates or pots, no pens, no ink, no paper -- and so, after a
generation or two, no writing, no history, and certainly no stories of
the complexity of those in the Red Book of Westmarch.

But I suppose, being rural folk and very reclusive, they /might/ have
managed it. It could, for example, have been preseved as a /mathom/ (I
hope I got that right, I am going by memory here).

BTW, the Red Book of Westmarch is not the /only/ "Red Book". One of my
old MHS LPs, in the History of Spanish Music series, presents
selections from "El Llibro Vermeil de Montserrat", "The Red Book of
Montserrat".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llibre_Vermell_de_Montserrat has some
information on it, including its condition after a mere 700 years.

The original Red Book of Westmarch, of course, would, if it still
exists, be much much older, so I would agree that a certain amount of
scribal copying probably occurred and so what JRRT used was a copy of
a copy of a copy ...
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
JJ
2015-10-26 11:37:33 UTC
Permalink
Parchment? There is plenty of centuries-old parchment documentation in England.
John W Kennedy
2015-10-26 16:37:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by JJ
Parchment? There is plenty of centuries-old parchment documentation in England.
And even if it were paper, it wouldn't be modern bleached wood pulp
(I've seen music scores from 1924 that were disintegrating by the
1970s); it would be linen. I've handled 15th-century printed books that
could have been made the day before.
--
John W Kennedy
"Information is light. Information, in itself, about anything, is light."
-- Tom Stoppard. "Night and Day"
Lewis
2015-10-26 17:12:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by JJ
Parchment? There is plenty of centuries-old parchment documentation in England.
Parchment is not paper.
--
Science is the foot that kicks magic square in the nuts.
John W Kennedy
2015-10-27 03:47:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by JJ
Parchment? There is plenty of centuries-old parchment documentation in England.
Parchment is not paper.
Actually, some "parchment" is paper. But that's neither here nor there.
Is the material of the leaves of the Red Book canonically stated
anywhere? For that matter, what about papyrus?
--
John W Kennedy
"The bright critics assembled in this volume will doubtless show, in
their sophisticated and ingenious new ways, that, just as /Pooh/ is
suffused with humanism, our humanism itself, at this late date, has
become full of /Pooh./"
-- Frederick Crews. "Postmodern Pooh", Preface
Lewis
2015-10-27 05:57:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by JJ
Parchment? There is plenty of centuries-old parchment documentation in England.
Parchment is not paper.
Actually, some "parchment" is paper. But that's neither here nor there.
If people do not knwo the meaning of parchemnt.

Parchment is animal skin, stretched and dried. Usually sheep, but
sometimes goat.
Post by John W Kennedy
Is the material of the leaves of the Red Book canonically stated
anywhere? For that matter, what about papyrus?
No Nile River in the Shire.
--
Don't just *do* something: *sit* there!
JJ
2015-10-27 11:38:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by JJ
Parchment? There is plenty of centuries-old parchment documentation in England.
Parchment is not paper.
Actually, some "parchment" is paper. But that's neither here nor there.
If people do not knwo the meaning of parchemnt.
Parchment is animal skin, stretched and dried. Usually sheep, but
sometimes goat.
Er ... yes? So what?
Lewis
2015-10-27 14:19:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by JJ
Post by Lewis
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by JJ
Parchment? There is plenty of centuries-old parchment documentation in England.
Parchment is not paper.
Actually, some "parchment" is paper. But that's neither here nor there.
If people do not knwo the meaning of parchemnt.
Parchment is animal skin, stretched and dried. Usually sheep, but
sometimes goat.
Er ... yes? So what?
So no parchment is paper.
--
I gotta straighten my face This mellow-thighed chick just put my spine
out of place
John W Kennedy
2015-10-28 02:22:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by JJ
Post by Lewis
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by JJ
Parchment? There is plenty of centuries-old parchment documentation in England.
Parchment is not paper.
Actually, some "parchment" is paper. But that's neither here nor there.
If people do not knwo the meaning of parchemnt.
Parchment is animal skin, stretched and dried. Usually sheep, but
sometimes goat.
Er ... yes? So what?
So no parchment is paper.
I didn't say parchment is paper, I said, "Some 'parchment' is paper",
which can be established by wandering into any stationery department.
Or cooking-supply store, for that matter.

And, by the way, Cyperus papyrus is not limited to the Nile.
--
John W Kennedy
"The pathetic hope that the White House will turn a Caligula into a
Marcus Aurelius is as naïve as the fear that ultimate power inevitably
corrupts."
-- James D. Barber (1930-2004)
Lewis
2015-10-28 03:25:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by JJ
Post by Lewis
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by JJ
Parchment? There is plenty of centuries-old parchment documentation in England.
Parchment is not paper.
Actually, some "parchment" is paper. But that's neither here nor there.
If people do not knwo the meaning of parchemnt.
Parchment is animal skin, stretched and dried. Usually sheep, but
sometimes goat.
Er ... yes? So what?
So no parchment is paper.
I didn't say parchment is paper, I said, "Some 'parchment' is paper",
which can be established by wandering into any stationery department.
Or cooking-supply store, for that matter.
Only if you think that 'Parchment paper' is parchment which is a bit like
thinking a bear claw is something from a bear.
Post by John W Kennedy
And, by the way, Cyperus papyrus is not limited to the Nile.
Point is you need a big river with lots of slow moving water for the
reeds.
--
Do Alaska and Hawaii have Interstate Highways?
Bill O'Meally
2015-10-28 11:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by John W Kennedy
And, by the way, Cyperus papyrus is not limited to the Nile.
Point is you need a big river with lots of slow moving water for the
reeds.
Like, say, The Brandywine?
--
Bill O'Meally
Lewis
2015-10-28 14:39:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill O'Meally
Post by Lewis
Post by John W Kennedy
And, by the way, Cyperus papyrus is not limited to the Nile.
Point is you need a big river with lots of slow moving water for the
reeds.
Like, say, The Brandywine?
The descriptions of the brandywine didn't include the features you'd
find massive reeds growing on. Also, the Shire is rather far north for
papyrus. It gets snow, as I recall.
--
I WILL NOT SCREAM FOR ICE CREAM Bart chalkboard Ep. AABF03
Paul S. Person
2015-10-27 16:58:47 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 23:47:19 -0400, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by JJ
Parchment? There is plenty of centuries-old parchment documentation in England.
Parchment is not paper.
Actually, some "parchment" is paper. But that's neither here nor there.
Is the material of the leaves of the Red Book canonically stated
anywhere? For that matter, what about papyrus?
Wikipedia suggests that "parchment paper" relates to "parchment" the
same way the prepackaged "bear claw" pastry I buy at the drug store
relates to a Bear Claw produced by an actual bakery: the name is the
same.

"Parchment paper" is so-called (per Wikipedia) because it /looks like
parchment/ and it is sometimes used for legal purposes where
traditional parchment was used because of its stability

But mostly it is used in baking, and so called "baking paper". This
appears to be because it provide a disposible non-stick surface. It is
not, however, wax paper.

It manufacture requires chemistry, and we all know how JRRT felt about
Hobbits and technology.

That drug-store "bear claw", BTW, is closer to the real deal, in that
the filling is similar so you get something resembling the same taste.

Parchment is adequately described by Lewis. Hey, if you're gonna eat
'em, you might as well do something with the skin!

Vellum is parchment made from calf skin, but clearly the same idea.

IIRC, it is parchment/vellum that can be "erased" by scraping and then
re-used. Sometimes the "erased" text can still be made out -- a
"palimpsest". Whether "parchment paper" can be scraped and rewritten I
have no idea, but I doubt it.

Papyrus is a plant which was used to make many things, among them a
writing surface.

It is, of course, also a business name. That is the problem with
reality: everything shifts about. The Papyrus store sells greeting
cards and stationary; I suspect that very little of it is papyrus --
or parchment, for that matter.

Paper, as such, is made from wood. Not papyrus, not sheep skins --
wood.

And, historically, paper did not exist in the West until it was
imported from China, IIRC. Actual parchment/vellum, OTOH, just
requires scraping and other steps that would be wholly acceptable to
JRRT as something the Hobbits would do.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Jerry Friedman
2016-01-22 05:57:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by JJ
Parchment? There is plenty of centuries-old parchment documentation in England.
Parchment is not paper.
Actually, some "parchment" is paper. But that's neither here nor there.
Is the material of the leaves of the Red Book canonically stated
anywhere?
Bilbo tells Frodo in Many Partings, "Collect all my notes and *papers*,
and my diary too, and take them with you, if you will."
That still doesn't tell use what the pages of the diary (the Red Book)
were made of.

In A Long-Expected Party, Bilbo wraps his embroidered waistcoat in
tissue paper, and leaves "a large waste-paper basket" to Dora Baggins.
Post by John W Kennedy
For that matter, what about papyrus?
Or beech bark? (After reading the OED's etymology of "book", I'm now
totally confused about whether "beech" and "book" are related and
whether the ancient Germanic peoples wrote on beech bark.)
--
Jerry Friedman
John W Kennedy
2016-01-25 15:12:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Lewis
Post by JJ
Parchment? There is plenty of centuries-old parchment documentation in England.
Parchment is not paper.
Actually, some "parchment" is paper. But that's neither here nor there.
Is the material of the leaves of the Red Book canonically stated
anywhere?
Bilbo tells Frodo in Many Partings, "Collect all my notes and *papers*,
and my diary too, and take them with you, if you will."
Meaningless.
Post by Jerry Friedman
That still doesn't tell use what the pages of the diary (the Red Book)
were made of.
In A Long-Expected Party, Bilbo wraps his embroidered waistcoat in
tissue paper, and leaves "a large waste-paper basket" to Dora Baggins.
Post by John W Kennedy
For that matter, what about papyrus?
Or beech bark? (After reading the OED's etymology of "book", I'm now
totally confused about whether "beech" and "book" are related and
whether the ancient Germanic peoples wrote on beech bark.)
--
John W Kennedy
"...if you had to fall in love with someone who was evil, I can see why
it was her."
-- "Alias"
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