How old is Legolas?

[Michelle J. Haines]

So, is there anything in any of the more obscure writings that says
how old Legolas is?

It was wondering about this question months ago that led me to this
newsgroup, in a round-about way, actually. So I suppose I should ask
the question finally.

I was sitting there one day, thinking, "How old is Legolas, anyway?
It's got to be in the Tale of Years, everyone else is. Oh, wait,
it's NOT in the Tale of Years? How did that happen?"

Michelle
Flutist

[Jon Meltzer]

Post by Michelle J. Haines
So, is there anything in any of the more obscure writings that says
how old Legolas is?

Not in anything that's been published. All we know is that he's older than
Aragorn.

[Isildur]

Post by Michelle J. Haines
So, is there anything in any of the more obscure writings that says
how old Legolas is?
It was wondering about this question months ago that led me to this
newsgroup, in a round-about way, actually. So I suppose I should ask
the question finally.

The Encyclopedia of Arda states:
Legolas' date of birth is not known. He passed over the
Sea in IV 120

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/l/legolas.html

[A Tsar Is Born]

Post by Michelle J. Haines
So, is there anything in any of the more obscure writings that says
how old Legolas is?

If you were that well preserved, you wouldn't reveal your true age either.

He's LOTS older than Aragorn (a child of 90) -- he keeps talking down to
Gimli about how "young" the dwarf is, how tiring it is to hang out with the
short-lived, etc. -- and Gimli's forty if he's a day.

Tsar Parmathule

[Raven]

Post by Michelle J. Haines
So, is there anything in any of the more obscure writings that says
how old Legolas is?

From TT, the chapter "The King of the Golden Hall", referring to the
building of Meduseld:
"Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home
since then," said Legolas, "and but a little while does that seem to us."
Of course he may personally have been born after this, speaking as a
representative of his people and not for himself. But it does suggest that
five hundred years are just a small part of Legolas' life so far.

Kákam.

[Michelle J. Haines]

Post by Raven

Post by Michelle J. Haines
So, is there anything in any of the more obscure writings that says
how old Legolas is?

From TT, the chapter "The King of the Golden Hall", referring to the
"Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home
since then," said Legolas, "and but a little while does that seem to us."
Of course he may personally have been born after this, speaking as a
representative of his people and not for himself. But it does suggest that
five hundred years are just a small part of Legolas' life so far.

I figured he was at least that old, from reading the text myself, I
just wondered if it was ever pinned down more definitively. I did
once read an essay that put his age at about 1500-ish years, which
still seems a little short. I think the movie folks pinned an age
label on him that was about the same as Arwen, but I don't know where
they came up with the number.

I did lament a little that in the extended scene in Fangorn with the
Hunters, they left out one of my favorite Legolas lines, about the
forest making him feel young in a way that he hadn't felt since
journeying with "you children". :)

Michelle
Flutist

[A Tsar Is Born]

Post by Michelle J. Haines
I did lament a little that in the extended scene in Fangorn with the
Hunters, they left out one of my favorite Legolas lines, about the
forest making him feel young in a way that he hadn't felt since
journeying with "you children". :)

And to think he had lived that long without a single trip to the beach!

Tsar Parmathule

[coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges]

Post by A Tsar Is Born

Post by Michelle J. Haines
I did lament a little that in the extended scene in Fangorn with the
Hunters, they left out one of my favorite Legolas lines, about the
forest making him feel young in a way that he hadn't felt since
journeying with "you children". :)

And to think he had lived that long without a single trip to the beach!

lifes a beach
and then you sail

[Steuard Jensen]

Post by Michelle J. Haines

Post by Michelle J. Haines
So, is there anything in any of the more obscure writings that
says how old Legolas is?

[Snip quote about Ents' search]...it does suggest that five
hundred years are just a small part of Legolas' life so far.

I figured he was at least that old, from reading the text myself, I
just wondered if it was ever pinned down more definitively.

I don't think so.

Post by Michelle J. Haines
I did lament a little that in the extended scene in Fangorn with the
Hunters, they left out one of my favorite Legolas lines, about the
forest making him feel young in a way that he hadn't felt since
journeying with "you children". :)

I hadn't even thought about that, but yeah, it would have been a great
line. On the other hand, it would have revealed just how inaccurate
Gimli calling him "laddie" really was. :)

When I've thought about this question, I've wondered if the comment in
the LotR Prologue about Celeborn's departure might actually put a
limit on the age of Thranduil. If we assume that Thranduil did not
leave for the West before Celeborn did, then the statement that "with
[Celeborn] went the last living memory of the Elder Days in
Middle-earth" precludes Thranduil from having lived in the First Age.
(That's a big assumption, but probably not a bad one: Celeborn was
lingering almost alone in Rivendell and his wife was already across
the sea, while Thranduil was still king of Mirkwood and his life
probably hadn't changed much from the previous few thousand years)

That leaves room for Legolas to be about 6000 years old (give or take
a few centuries). Whether he actually lived for an appreciable
fraction of that or not, I really don't know. If there are any hints
in the book that he hadn't been to Mordor before (are there?), that
would probably imply that he wasn't born until after his father joined
in the Last Alliance, leaving him at most 3000 years old or so.
Beyond that, I'm not sure what we can conclude. I'd be interested to
see what arguments other people have come up with. (I wonder if they
give any hints about his hair color...)

Steuard Jensen

[Michelle J. Haines]

Post by Steuard Jensen
I hadn't even thought about that, but yeah, it would have been a great
line. On the other hand, it would have revealed just how inaccurate
Gimli calling him "laddie" really was. :)

True. :)

Post by Steuard Jensen
I'd be interested to
see what arguments other people have come up with. (I wonder if they
give any hints about his hair color...)

I imagine you've read most of the essays floating around, but here
are couple I've found interesting:

http://www.istad.org/tolkien/legolas.html
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/36517

Michelle
Flutist

[Steuard Jensen]

I'd be interested to see what arguments other people have come up
with.

I imagine you've read most of the essays floating around...

Not really: I've read a few essays here and there, but generally only
when I've gone looking for information on specific topics (and I
haven't sought out Legolas info very often).

http://www.istad.org/tolkien/legolas.html
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/36517

I think Michael's essay (at Suite101) is quite good: it's well thought
out, like most of his work, and his conclusion that Legolas is
relatively young feels pretty much "right" to me. The other essay is
interesting as well, though I don't feel quite the same confidence in
it as I do in Michael's (among other things, I feel like it mistakenly
connects the coming of the Balrog with Thranduil's move to Northern
Mirkwood).

Thanks for the links!
Steuard Jensen

[Tar-Elenion]

Post by Steuard Jensen

I'd be interested to see what arguments other people have come up
with.

I imagine you've read most of the essays floating around...

Not really: I've read a few essays here and there, but generally only
when I've gone looking for information on specific topics (and I
haven't sought out Legolas info very often).

http://www.istad.org/tolkien/legolas.html
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/36517

I think Michael's essay (at Suite101) is quite good: it's well thought
out, like most of his work, and his conclusion that Legolas is
relatively young feels pretty much "right" to me. The other essay is
interesting as well, though I don't feel quite the same confidence in
it as I do in Michael's (among other things, I feel like it mistakenly
connects the coming of the Balrog with Thranduil's move to Northern
Mirkwood).

We can draw some conclusions from various sources. Legolas is the oldest
of the Fellowship (save Gandalf). He refers to the others as children. He
says that he has seen trees grow from seed to death. This indicates a
great age. However, Legolas has not seen the Sea, so he had not been in
Lindon where Oropher and Thranduil ventured forth from earlier in the
Second Age. He is unfamiliar with Eregion where Thranduil and Oropher
travelled thru. He is not mentioned when Oropher and Thranduil come to
Greenwood or go to the Last Alliance. He also does not know Galadriel and
Celeborn, though Oropher and Thranduil retreated away from their
incursions into the environs of Lorien. This points to Legolas being born
in the Third Age. I think he shows a certain respect or deference to the
Twins so he is probably younger than they are (Elladan and Elrohir were
born in TA 130). In my opinion he was probably born after Thranduil
founded his stronghold in the North of Mirkwood (ca.1000 3rd Age), after
the Shadow started to fall on Mirkwood. My own speculation would be that
he was born in the mid Third Age, though even later is possible.

[Michelle J. Haines]

Post by Steuard Jensen
I think Michael's essay (at Suite101) is quite good: it's well thought
out, like most of his work, and his conclusion that Legolas is
relatively young feels pretty much "right" to me.

I haven't re-found the link yet, but there was an essay that was a
partial rebuttal to Michael's essay, discussing why he thought 500
years was too low. For one, Legolas makes a comment that he's seen
many oaks grow from acorn to ruinous age, and oak trees live about
500 years, and watching all of them concurrently wouldn't make much
sense; so this person concluded he had to have seen at least three
back-to-back acorn-to-death oak cycles. Which would give him a
minimum of 1500 years. Still pretty young, but not the virtual baby
500 years would make. :)

I'm probably presenting his argument poorly, but I'll try to find
that article when I'm not still in the middle of moving. :/

Michelle
Flutist

[vvvv]

do we know the fate of Legolas, guide of the refugees of Gondolin (BOLT2)?
is there any case to be made that our Legolas is the return of the other one
from the halls of Mandos (cf. Glorfindel)? What do refurbished Elves
remember of their former lives?
vvvv

Post by Steuard Jensen

I'd be interested to see what arguments other people have come up
with.

I imagine you've read most of the essays floating around...

Not really: I've read a few essays here and there, but generally only
when I've gone looking for information on specific topics (and I
haven't sought out Legolas info very often).

http://www.istad.org/tolkien/legolas.html
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/36517

[Tar-Elenion]

In article <XAqyb.318388$***@twister.nyc.rr.com>, ***@nowhere.com
says...

Post by vvvv
do we know the fate of Legolas, guide of the refugees of Gondolin (BOLT2)?

He went to Tol Eressea following the defeat of Melko.

Post by vvvv
is there any case to be made that our Legolas is the return of the other one
from the halls of Mandos (cf. Glorfindel)?

No. Though some have tried. BolT Legolas did not die.

Post by vvvv
What do refurbished Elves
remember of their former lives?

They eventially recover their memories.

[Jon Meltzer]

Post by Steuard Jensen
If we assume that Thranduil did not
leave for the West before Celeborn did, then the statement that "with
[Celeborn] went the last living memory of the Elder Days in
Middle-earth" precludes Thranduil from having lived in the First Age.

That statement also implies that Cirdan had left before Celeborn.

[Steuard Jensen]

Post by Jon Meltzer

If we assume that Thranduil did not leave for the West before
Celeborn did, then the statement that "with [Celeborn] went the
last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth" precludes
Thranduil from having lived in the First Age.

That statement also implies that Cirdan had left before Celeborn.

Or with him: Celeborn sailing on "the Last Ship" seems like a
reasonable scenario to me. I wonder how widely publicized among the
Elves the final major departure from Middle-earth was, and whether
there was a rush of lingerers to leave with it (or before it)?

Steuard Jensen

[Jim Heckman]

Post by Steuard Jensen

Post by Jon Meltzer

If we assume that Thranduil did not leave for the West before
Celeborn did, then the statement that "with [Celeborn] went the
last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth" precludes
Thranduil from having lived in the First Age.

That statement also implies that Cirdan had left before Celeborn.

Or with him: Celeborn sailing on "the Last Ship" seems like a
reasonable scenario to me. I wonder how widely publicized among the
Elves the final major departure from Middle-earth was, and whether
there was a rush of lingerers to leave with it (or before it)?

The final few paragraphs of _Of the Rings of Power and the Third
Age_ in Sil seem to me to strongly imply that Círdan, and the
last of the Noldor, left with Bilbo, Frodo and the Keepers of
the Three. I must admit that this doesn't quite square with my
own fantasy that Círdan still waits by the Western shore of
Middle-Earth for "the last ship" to sail :-)

[s***@nomail.com]

Jim Heckman <***@lnubb.pbz.invalid> wrote:

: On 30-Nov-2003, ***@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote
: in message <wqsyb.4$***@news.uchicago.edu>:

:> Quoth "Jon Meltzer" <***@mindspring.com> in article
:> <qepyb.28267$***@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>:
:>
:> > "Steuard Jensen" <***@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
:> > > If we assume that Thranduil did not leave for the West before
:> > > Celeborn did, then the statement that "with [Celeborn] went the
:> > > last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth" precludes
:> > > Thranduil from having lived in the First Age.
:>
:> > That statement also implies that Cirdan had left before Celeborn.
:>
:> Or with him: Celeborn sailing on "the Last Ship" seems like a
:> reasonable scenario to me. I wonder how widely publicized among the
:> Elves the final major departure from Middle-earth was, and whether
:> there was a rush of lingerers to leave with it (or before it)?

: The final few paragraphs of _Of the Rings of Power and the Third
: Age_ in Sil seem to me to strongly imply that Círdan, and the
: last of the Noldor, left with Bilbo, Frodo and the Keepers of
: the Three. I must admit that this doesn't quite square with my
: own fantasy that Círdan still waits by the Western shore of
: Middle-Earth for "the last ship" to sail :-)

Appendix A of the LotR has this line

"At the Grey Havens dwelt Cirdan the Shipwright, and some
say he dwells there still, until the Last Ship sets sail into
the West. In the days of the Kings most of the High Elves
that still lingered in Middle-earth dwelt with Cirdan or
in the seaward lands of Lindon. If any now remain they
are few.'"

which implies that Cirdan remained. Of course, this has
the "some say" qualifier, which many people take to mean
that it is not necessarily so.

Stephen

[Tar-Elenion]

Post by s***@nomail.com
:>
:> > > If we assume that Thranduil did not leave for the West before
:> > > Celeborn did, then the statement that "with [Celeborn] went the
:> > > last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth" precludes
:> > > Thranduil from having lived in the First Age.
:>
:> > That statement also implies that Cirdan had left before Celeborn.
:>
:> Or with him: Celeborn sailing on "the Last Ship" seems like a
:> reasonable scenario to me. I wonder how widely publicized among the
:> Elves the final major departure from Middle-earth was, and whether
:> there was a rush of lingerers to leave with it (or before it)?
: The final few paragraphs of _Of the Rings of Power and the Third
: Age_ in Sil seem to me to strongly imply that Círdan, and the
: last of the Noldor, left with Bilbo, Frodo and the Keepers of
: the Three. I must admit that this doesn't quite square with my
: own fantasy that Círdan still waits by the Western shore of
: Middle-Earth for "the last ship" to sail :-)
Appendix A of the LotR has this line
"At the Grey Havens dwelt Cirdan the Shipwright, and some
say he dwells there still, until the Last Ship sets sail into
the West. In the days of the Kings most of the High Elves
that still lingered in Middle-earth dwelt with Cirdan or
in the seaward lands of Lindon. If any now remain they
are few.'"
which implies that Cirdan remained. Of course, this has
the "some say" qualifier, which many people take to mean
that it is not necessarily so.

Also, the Prologue to LotR notes that some of the Noldor remained into
the Fourth Age.

[A Tsar Is Born]

Post by s***@nomail.com
Appendix A of the LotR has this line
"At the Grey Havens dwelt Cirdan the Shipwright, and some
say he dwells there still, until the Last Ship sets sail into
the West. In the days of the Kings most of the High Elves
that still lingered in Middle-earth dwelt with Cirdan or
in the seaward lands of Lindon. If any now remain they
are few.'"
which implies that Cirdan remained. Of course, this has
the "some say" qualifier, which many people take to mean
that it is not necessarily so.
Stephen

Yes, I like that qualification.
It's one of JRRT's little jokes in imitation of genuine knowledge rather
than admit he made the whole thing up. He couldn't think of a perfectly
fitting time for the last ship to sail, so he decided to leave it fairy-tale
vague. If you believe the rest of it is true, then why ruin things for you
by saying it's all over?
Cute.

Tsar P

[Stan Brown]

In article <nInAb.31$***@nwrdny02.gnilink.net> in
rec.arts.books.tolkien, A Tsar Is Born

Post by A Tsar Is Born
It's one of JRRT's little jokes in imitation of genuine knowledge rather
than admit he made the whole thing up.

He DID????

Heretic!

[A Tsar Is Born]

Post by Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien, A Tsar Is Born

Post by A Tsar Is Born
It's one of JRRT's little jokes in imitation of genuine knowledge rather
than admit he made the whole thing up.

He DID????
Heretic!

I'd say "Mea culpa" but heretics don't say that, do they?

Tsar P