Discussion:
[Semi-OT] Book covers, paranormal, mythology and fantasy
(too old to reply)
Steve Hayes
2019-03-15 11:50:50 UTC
Permalink
I recently published a novel called "The Year of the Dragon" as an
ebook.

The cover has been entered in a compeition where you vote for the best
of ten book covers here:

http://authorshout.com/cover-wars/

and I hope you might be moved to go to that site and vote for it. Of
course you may think that one of the others is better, then by all
means vote for that, though I'm fairly sure the cover of "The Year of
the Dragon" is the best of the bunch.

The cover was designed by my son Simon Hayes, who is a freelance
computer illustrator and animator. I don't think it's the best just
because he's my son, but I'd be interested in any comments anyone has
on his or any of the other designs.

The competition lasts until 17 March, and you can vote once every 24
hours.

If you would like more explanations and a larger picture of the cover
(the one on the voting site is rather small), see here.

<https://ondermynende.wordpress.com/2019/03/11/judging-a-book-by-its-cover/>

One reviewer described the book as being of the "paranormal" genre,
which struck me as rather weird. It's a fairly straightforward
adventure story with Christian and African mythological elements,
which I would have thought put it in the adventure/thriller genre,
possibly borderline fantasy.

In the ensuing discussion in a book forum on Facebook it appeared that
most of the genre experts seemed to think that the "fantasy" genre
required romance, and if the romance element was missing, then it was
"paranormal".

I suppose under that definition "The Lord of the Rings" would just
make it into the fantasy bracket because Aragorn and Arwen marry. But
Lewis's Narnia stories, or Alan Garner's children's books must be
"paranormal", because the main characters are siblings and there's no
hint of incest.

To add yet more confusion, a religion scholar, John Morehead, has
recently published a book on "The Paranormal and popular culture".

When I asked him about this he said "Paranormal is not defined as a
literary genre in our text. We draw upon Jeffrey Kripal's definition
where we are dealing with phenomena rejected by mainstream religion
and traditional science. The paranormal can be expressed in a variety
of ways, including literature, but that's not our focus for
definition."

So to summarise, what I'm asking is:

1. Please go to http://authorshout.com/cover-wars/ and vote for the
best book cover.

2. Please come back and say what you think of the book covers there.

3. Say whether you think "paranormal" is a literary genre, and if so,
how you think it differs from fantasy.

4. (optional) buy my book, read it, and write a review.
--
Stephen Hayes, Author of The Year of the Dragon
Sample or purchase The Year of the Dragon:
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/907935
Web site: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail: ***@dunelm.org.uk
JimboCat
2019-03-15 18:02:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
I recently published a novel called "The Year of the Dragon" as an
ebook.
This universe does not support definitions of literary genres that can be agree upon by more than two people: it's a fruitless search for order in a fundamentally chaotic world.

As far as the cover art: I may be too sensitive, but that cover fell hard into the uncanny valley for me.

JimboCat
--
Every observable corresponds to a potential fixed underlying reality,
but no possible underlying reality corresponds to every observable.
--Toby Bartels
Steve Hayes
2019-03-16 02:52:09 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 11:02:15 -0700 (PDT), JimboCat
Post by Steve Hayes
I recently published a novel called "The Year of the Dragon" as an
ebook.
This universe does not support definitions of literary genres that can
be agree upon by more than two people: it's a fruitless search for
order in a fundamentally chaotic world.

As far as the cover art: I may be too sensitive, but that cover fell
hard into the uncanny valley for me.

JimboCat
--
Every observable corresponds to a potential fixed underlying reality,
but no possible underlying reality corresponds to every observable.
--Toby Bartels
Steve Hayes
2019-03-16 03:00:02 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 11:02:15 -0700 (PDT), JimboCat
Post by JimboCat
Post by Steve Hayes
I recently published a novel called "The Year of the Dragon" as an
ebook.
This universe does not support definitions of literary genres that can
be agree upon by more than two people: it's a fruitless search for
order in a fundamentally chaotic world.
Probably true, and also true that only God can bring order out of
chaos, but even if one ends up with as many opinions as there are
people, I'd still be interested in what others hjave to say about
genres.
Post by JimboCat
As far as the cover art: I may be too sensitive, but that cover fell
hard into the uncanny valley for me.
"uncanny valley"? Care to elaborate?
--
Stephen Hayes, Author of The Year of the Dragon
Sample or purchase The Year of the Dragon:
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/907935
Web site: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail: ***@dunelm.org.uk
John W Kennedy
2019-03-16 16:53:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 11:02:15 -0700 (PDT), JimboCat
Post by JimboCat
Post by Steve Hayes
I recently published a novel called "The Year of the Dragon" as an
ebook.
This universe does not support definitions of literary genres that can
be agree upon by more than two people: it's a fruitless search for
order in a fundamentally chaotic world.
Probably true, and also true that only God can bring order out of
chaos, but even if one ends up with as many opinions as there are
people, I'd still be interested in what others hjave to say about
genres.
Post by JimboCat
As far as the cover art: I may be too sensitive, but that cover fell
hard into the uncanny valley for me.
"uncanny valley"? Care to elaborate?
A term mainly used in computer art and animation. It means that
something is too realistic to be a cartoon, but too unrealistic to be a
photograph, and comes off as creepy.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
Steve Hayes
2019-03-17 10:59:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 16 Mar 2019 12:53:01 -0400, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Steve Hayes
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 11:02:15 -0700 (PDT), JimboCat
Post by JimboCat
Post by Steve Hayes
I recently published a novel called "The Year of the Dragon" as an
ebook.
This universe does not support definitions of literary genres that can
be agree upon by more than two people: it's a fruitless search for
order in a fundamentally chaotic world.
Probably true, and also true that only God can bring order out of
chaos, but even if one ends up with as many opinions as there are
people, I'd still be interested in what others hjave to say about
genres.
Post by JimboCat
As far as the cover art: I may be too sensitive, but that cover fell
hard into the uncanny valley for me.
"uncanny valley"? Care to elaborate?
A term mainly used in computer art and animation. It means that
something is too realistic to be a cartoon, but too unrealistic to be a
photograph, and comes off as creepy.
Ah, thanks. It's my son who's into computer animation, not me.
--
Stephen Hayes, Author of The Year of the Dragon
Sample or purchase The Year of the Dragon:
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/907935
Web site: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail: ***@dunelm.org.uk
Paul S Person
2019-03-19 17:08:37 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 16 Mar 2019 12:53:01 -0400, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Steve Hayes
"uncanny valley"? Care to elaborate?
A term mainly used in computer art and animation. It means that
something is too realistic to be a cartoon, but too unrealistic to be a
photograph, and comes off as creepy.
Sounds like something that might be very useful in working with, eg,
Lovecraft's /Color Out of Space/. Among other things.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Steve Hayes
2019-03-19 05:24:20 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 13:50:50 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
3. Say whether you think "paranormal" is a literary genre, and if so,
how you think it differs from fantasy.
For more on this see:

<https://khanya.wordpress.com/2019/03/18/the-paranormal-in-literature-and-popular-culture/>

or

https://t.co/Om1XGpm4iW

What is the difference between myth, fantasy, and the paranormal as
literary genres?
--
Stephen Hayes, Author of The Year of the Dragon
Sample or purchase The Year of the Dragon:
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/907935
Web site: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail: ***@dunelm.org.uk
John W Kennedy
2019-03-19 19:03:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 13:50:50 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
3. Say whether you think "paranormal" is a literary genre, and if so,
how you think it differs from fantasy.
<https://khanya.wordpress.com/2019/03/18/the-paranormal-in-literature-and-popular-culture/>
or
https://t.co/Om1XGpm4iW
What is the difference between myth, fantasy, and the paranormal as
literary genres?
A “myth” has something to do with religion or history, or at least
imitates it (“The Silmarillion”).

“Fantasy” is a broad category including just about anything that is not
wholly realistic. “High fantasy” is frequently used to describe stories
of war and court life in a world where magic works, but any religious
element is generally off-stage. “The Lord of the Rings” is the classic
example.

“The paranormal” is normally set here-and-how, and has the supernatural
rudely breaking into everyday life, often with horrible results. (Steven
King, for instance.)
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
Steve Hayes
2019-03-21 05:15:18 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 15:03:40 -0400, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Steve Hayes
https://t.co/Om1XGpm4iW
What is the difference between myth, fantasy, and the paranormal as
literary genres?
A “myth” has something to do with religion or history, or at least
imitates it (“The Silmarillion”).
Agreed, but I think it also says something significant about life, the
universe and everything.
Post by John W Kennedy
“Fantasy” is a broad category including just about anything that is not
wholly realistic. “High fantasy” is frequently used to describe stories
of war and court life in a world where magic works, but any religious
element is generally off-stage. “The Lord of the Rings” is the classic
example.
Yes, and I would include Narnia, and Alan Garner's children's books.

But those all include myth -- at least I think Tolkien, and ptobably
Lewis thought so.

But "The Lord of the Rings" has brought forth countless imitators, who
emulate the fantasy without inorporating the myth. This genre has been
called "Sword and Sorcery". Rather dull, derivative stuff. I recently
read one of that genre, "The Sword of Shannara" by Terry Brooks. I
won't read any more of his.
Post by John W Kennedy
“The paranormal” is normally set here-and-how, and has the supernatural
rudely breaking into everyday life, often with horrible results. (Steven
King, for instance.)
Yes but... wouldn't that definition include Charles Williams?

Someone, in an Inklings mailing list (not newsgroup) stated
categorically that Charles Williams belonged to the genre now called
"urban fantasy". That would make him a pioneer, surely?

It includes people like Neil Gaiman, whose works I read in the hope
that he might be writing the same kind of story as Charles Williams,
but not quite.

Stephen King... I think his best book was "Pet Sematary". It's his
zombie story, just as "'Salem's Lot" is his vampire story, though he
doesn't use the word "zombie" in it. I suppose zombies, ghosts and
vampires belong to what is called "the paranormal". At first I thought
that Stephen King's work was purely nihilist, like H.P. Lovecraft --
some kind of malevolent supernatural creature that represents an
irrational irredeemably evil universe. But King, at least in "Pet
Sematery", goes along with Solzhenitsin's idea of the line between
good and evil being drawn through every human heart. In King's book,
the evil is just *there* -- it is how humans respond to it that makes
the story. The classic example of that genre is "The monkey's paw",
which I saw as a school play when I was 8 years old, and the memory
has stayed with me ever since.

But King's books range from good to very bad. The quality varies
enormously.

At one point I thought that Phil Rickman was the British Stephen King,
with hopes that he might develop into something more like Charles
Williams, but unfortunately his main protagonist, Merrily Watkins,
seems to be channelling Miss Marple now.


I'm still feeling my way in this conversation, trying to bounce ideas
around and see if my thoughts can become clearer, so I might say
something totally different tomorrow, when someone else has said
something different. So don't expect consistency from me. But I'm
really grateful for your contribution to the conversation.
--
Stephen Hayes, Author of The Year of the Dragon
Sample or purchase The Year of the Dragon:
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/907935
Web site: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail: ***@dunelm.org.uk
JimboCat
2019-03-22 16:22:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 15:03:40 -0400, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
“The paranormal” is normally set here-and-how, and has the supernatural
rudely breaking into everyday life, often with horrible results. (Steven
King, for instance.)
Yes but... wouldn't that definition include Charles Williams?
Someone, in an Inklings mailing list (not newsgroup) stated
categorically that Charles Williams belonged to the genre now called
"urban fantasy". That would make him a pioneer, surely?
It includes people like Neil Gaiman, whose works I read in the hope
that he might be writing the same kind of story as Charles Williams,
but not quite.
This really is an interesting conversation...

I like Charles Williams a lot, but I really love Neil Gaiman. I have posted before, here and elsewhere, that I think he is the one living writer who has the whole Faery thing down and uses it as prescribed by JRRT in "On Fairy Stories".

In his novel _Neverwhere_ he wrote (referring to the human protagonist)

He had gone beyond the world of metaphor and simile into
the place of things that are, and it was changing him.

That's so Tolkien! In OFS JRRT wrote

Faërie cannot be caught in a net of words; for it is
one of its qualities to be indescribable, though not
imperceptible.

...the power of Faërie, that power which, even as it
conceives the story, causes it to take living form and
colour before the eyes.

An essential power of Faerie is thus the power of making
immediately effective by the will the visions of “fantasy.”

There is another, completely separate, concept that Gaiman might have taken directly from OFS. In his novel, all the transactions we see between the inhabitants of Faery are via barter, and the most desirable commodity for bartering is the promise of a future favor. Tolkien remarks on this:

...the necessity of keeping promises (even those with
intolerable consequences) that, together with observing
prohibitions, runs through all Fairyland.

The consequences in _Neverwhere_ are often quite scary indeed, but the characters nevertheless do what they must and make promises when they must. I think JRRT would have liked it.

JimboCat
--
"Tolkien's moral theme is very simple: Acts with evil intent come back
to harm the doer in unexpected ways. Acts with good intents, even
mistakes and unwise acts, come back to help the doer in unexpected
ways." -- Phlip
John W Kennedy
2019-03-22 16:36:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by JimboCat
Post by Steve Hayes
On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 15:03:40 -0400, John W Kennedy
Post by John W Kennedy
“The paranormal” is normally set here-and-how, and has the supernatural
rudely breaking into everyday life, often with horrible results. (Steven
King, for instance.)
Yes but... wouldn't that definition include Charles Williams?
Someone, in an Inklings mailing list (not newsgroup) stated
categorically that Charles Williams belonged to the genre now called
"urban fantasy". That would make him a pioneer, surely?
It includes people like Neil Gaiman, whose works I read in the hope
that he might be writing the same kind of story as Charles Williams,
but not quite.
This really is an interesting conversation...
I like Charles Williams a lot, but I really love Neil Gaiman. I have posted before, here and elsewhere, that I think he is the one living writer who has the whole Faery thing down and uses it as prescribed by JRRT in "On Fairy Stories".
In his novel _Neverwhere_ he wrote (referring to the human protagonist)
He had gone beyond the world of metaphor and simile into
the place of things that are, and it was changing him.
Faërie cannot be caught in a net of words; for it is
one of its qualities to be indescribable, though not
imperceptible.
...the power of Faërie, that power which, even as it
conceives the story, causes it to take living form and
colour before the eyes.
An essential power of Faerie is thus the power of making
immediately effective by the will the visions of “fantasy.”
There is another, completely separate, concept that Gaiman might have taken directly from OFS. In his novel, all the transactions we see between the inhabitants of Faery are via barter,
I could not read that without being jet-propelled into Williams’ “Bors
to Elayne: On the King’s Coins”.
Post by JimboCat
...the necessity of keeping promises (even those with
intolerable consequences) that, together with observing
prohibitions, runs through all Fairyland.
The consequences in _Neverwhere_ are often quite scary indeed, but the characters nevertheless do what they must and make promises when they must. I think JRRT would have liked it.
JimboCat
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
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