Mordor's poisonous air?

[Chris Moorehead]

In article <***@news.boeing.com>, ***@boeing.com
says...

If, as Boromir says at the Council of Elrond, the very air of Mordor is a
"poison gas," how could Frodo and Sam (and Gollum) have survived it?
Forgive me, I'm a relative newbie.

Because Frodo & Sam hadn't seen Peter Jackson's film. Boromir doesn't
say this in the book.

Even in the film, Boromir is likely engaging in a bit of hyperbole. In
the Prologue, we see the Last Alliance fighting at the foot of Mount
Doom, & none of them appear to be suffocating from the fumes.

Of greater concern to Frodo & Sam should be the Nazgul, who fear water &
thus have likely not bathed for thousands of years...

Chris

[Robert J. Kolker]

If, as Boromir says at the Council of Elrond, the very air of Mordor is a
"poison gas," how could Frodo and Sam (and Gollum) have survived it?
Forgive me, I'm a relative newbie.

It does not kill right away. You will notice how Sam and Frodo both are
suffering from the environment, it is wearing them down. In addition
Frodo has the burden of the ring, which is getting heavier and heavier.

Bob Kolker

[AC]

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 04:13:07 GMT,

They're getting worn down because they don't have enough water and food.

The water in Mordor is foul, so they drink very little of it.

Actually they did drink water in Mordor. As I recall, it was the streams in
the Morgul Vale that they couldn't drink.

[AC]

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 05:21:33 GMT,

Post by AC
Actually they did drink water in Mordor. As I recall, it was the streams in
the Morgul Vale that they couldn't drink.

Water flowing in from the outside was o.k.. Water originitation in
Morder was not healthy.

Then explain the oily water they drank in Mordor.

[Graham Lockwood]

Post by AC
On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 05:21:33 GMT,

Post by AC
Actually they did drink water in Mordor. As I recall, it was the streams in
the Morgul Vale that they couldn't drink.

Water flowing in from the outside was o.k.. Water originitation in
Morder was not healthy.

Then explain the oily water they drank in Mordor.

Oily water is *healthy*?!?!?!

Not lethal, perhaps, but I don't know if I would call it healthy per se...
;)




||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||

[AC]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:44:56 +0200,

Post by AC
On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 05:21:33 GMT,

Post by AC
Actually they did drink water in Mordor. As I recall, it was the streams in
the Morgul Vale that they couldn't drink.

Water flowing in from the outside was o.k.. Water originitation in
Morder was not healthy.

Right. The water they drank in Mordor was the water Sam found in a few
almost-dry streams coming INTO Mordor while they were heading North
along its western mountain-frontiers, and...

Post by AC
Then explain the oily water they drank in Mordor.

...the water they found in cisterns along the way once inside Mordor,
put there for the Orcs because there was no drinkable water around (and
for Orcish standards "not drinkable" surely means SOMETHING).

It is also likely that water had to be made available in the middle of what
could be described as a desert. I'm sure there were poisoned streams in
Mordor, however.

But I admit it might also mean that there was NO other water around, at all.

As I recall (and I don't have my books near me), Frodo and Sam found water
in a small stream. Faramir's warning applied to the Morgul Vale, which is
not inside Mordor.

[Troels Forchhammer]

Post by AC
Actually they did drink water in Mordor. As I recall, it was the
streams in the Morgul Vale that they couldn't drink.

Water flowing in from the outside was o.k.. Water originitation in
Morder was not healthy.

That's exactly the description of the water of the Morgul Vale:

"You will have no lack of water as you walk in Ithilien, but do
not drink of any stream that flows from Imlad Morgul, the Valley
of Living Death. "
Faramir advice Frodo in "Journey to the Cross-roads," and in "The Stairs
of Cirith Ungol" Frodo and Sam discuss this advice:

" `Then all the more need to fill our bottles,' said Sam. `But
there isn't any water up here: not a sound or a trickle have I
heard. And anyway Faramir said we were not to drink any water
in Morgul.'
'No water flowing out of Imlad Morgul, were his words,' said
Frodo. `We are not in that valley now, and if we came on a spring
it would be flowing into it and not out of it.'
'I wouldn't trust it,' said Sam, 'not till I was dying of thirst.
There's a wicked feeling about this place.' He sniffed. 'And a
smell, I fancy. Do you notice it? A queer kind of a smell, stuffy.
I don't like it.'"

Later on they drink both of the water flowing in the valley between the
Ephel Dúath
and the Morgai and from the highway cisterns.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk

[AC]

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 05:21:33 GMT,

Post by AC
Actually they did drink water in Mordor. As I recall, it was the streams in
the Morgul Vale that they couldn't drink.

Water flowing in from the outside was o.k.. Water originitation in
Morder was not healthy.

"They had trudged for more than an hour when they heard a sound that brought
them to a halt. Unbelievable, but unmistakable. Water trickling. Out of a
gully on the left, so sharp and narrow that it looked as if the black cliff
had been cloven by some huge axe, water came dripping down: the last
remains, maybe, of some sweet rain gathered from sunlit seas, but ill-fated
to fall at last upon the walls of the Black Land and wander fruitless down
into the dust. Here it came out of the rock in a little falling streamlet,
and flowed across the path, and turning south ran away swiftly to be lost
among the dead stones."

"Sam Sprang towards it. 'If ever I see the Lady again, I will tell her!' he
cried. 'Light and now water!' Then he stopped. 'Let me drink first, Mr.
Frodo.' he said."

"'All right, but there's room enough for two.'"

"'I didn't mean that,' said Sam, 'I mean: if it's poisonous, or something
that will show its badness quick, well, better me than you, master, if you
understand me.'"

"'I do. But I think we'll trust our luck together, Sam; or our blessing.
Still, be careful now, if it's very cold!'"

"The water was cool but not icy, and it had an unpleasant taste, at once
bitter and oily, or so they would have said at home..."

RotK, "The Land of Shadow"

----

You seem to be confusing Mordor with the Morgul Vale. Faramir tells Frodo
in "Journey to the Crossroads" (in TTT):

"You will have no lack of water as you walk in Ithilien, but do not drink of
any stream that flows from Imlad Morgul, the Valley of Living Death."

----

Later, when Frodo, Sam and Smeagol are climbing the stairs of Cirith Ungol,
there is this exchange, which I this passage and the passage I just quoted
from "Journey to the Crossroads" are what you are confusing with Mordor.

"'I wonder when we'll find water again?" said Sam. "But I suppose even over
there they drink? Orcs drink, don't they?'"

"'Yes, they drink,' said Frodo, 'But do not let us speak of that. Such
drink is not for us.'"

"'Then all the more need to fill our bottles,' said Sam. 'But there isn't
any water up her: not a sound or a trickle have I heard. And anyway Faramir
said we were not to drink any water in Morgul.'"

"'No water flowing out of Imlad Morgul, were his words.' said Frodo. 'We
are not in that valley now, and if we came on a spring it would be flowing
into it and not out of it.'"

TTT, "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol"

I recall no passages warning against water in Mordor. Besides, the Sea of
Nurnen lays within Mordor, and we are told that there were fields there
where Sauron's slaves and servants grew food.

[AC .remove-m77-this]

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 00:55:48 GMT,

Post by Robert J. Kolker

If, as Boromir says at the Council of Elrond, the very air of Mordor is a
"poison gas," how could Frodo and Sam (and Gollum) have survived it?
Forgive me, I'm a relative newbie.

It does not kill right away. You will notice how Sam and Frodo both are
suffering from the environment, it is wearing them down. In addition
Frodo has the burden of the ring, which is getting heavier and heavier.

They're getting worn down because they don't have enough water and food.

["Robert J. Kolker" .remove-m77-this]

They're getting worn down because they don't have enough water and food.

The water in Mordor is foul, so they drink very little of it.

Bob Kolker
--- Synchronet 3.10L-Win32 NewsLink 1.52
* Time Warp of the Future BBS - Vancouver, Washington - telnet://Time.Darktech.Org

[the softrat]

On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 23:15:30 GMT, "Nicholas Berry"

If, as Boromir says at the Council of Elrond, the very air of Mordor is a
"poison gas," how could Frodo and Sam (and Gollum) have survived it?
Forgive me, I'm a relative newbie.

AND you been watchig too many movies. Read a book!


the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
"I spent a week in Montreal last weekend." -- Allan Lamport
(deceased), former mayor of Toronto.

[Johanna Katariina Rinne]

Chris Moorehead <***@attglobal.net> wrote:
: In article <***@news.boeing.com>, ***@boeing.com
: says...
:> If, as Boromir says at the Council of Elrond, the very air of Mordor is a
:> "poison gas," how could Frodo and Sam (and Gollum) have survived it?

: Because Frodo & Sam hadn't seen Peter Jackson's film. Boromir doesn't
: say this in the book.


I think I remember in some place it is said that Barad-Dur blows out
poisonous fumes, which refers to the clouds coming out of the volcano.
PJ perhaps had that in mind without remembering the exact quote.

[Marie-Lan Nguyen]

Post by Johanna Katariina Rinne
I think I remember in some place it is said that Barad-Dur blows out
poisonous fumes, which refers to the clouds coming out of the
volcano. PJ perhaps had that in mind without remembering the exact
quote.

I cannot find any occurrence of 'poisonous fume' in LotR. But there
are 'foul fumes' leaking from the mounds of slag (which are later
describes as 'poisonous') in Mordor, and when Frodo and Sam climb
Orodruin, "the air was full of fumes; breathing was painful and
difficult, and a dizziness came on them, so that they staggered and
often fell".

[Johanna Katariina Rinne]

Marie-Lan Nguyen <***@pip-pip.org> wrote:
: Johanna Katariina Rinne in <begqbo$m6o$***@haavi.uwasa.fi> scripsit:
:>
:> I think I remember in some place it is said that Barad-Dur blows out
:> poisonous fumes, which refers to the clouds coming out of the
:> volcano.

: I cannot find any occurrence of 'poisonous fume' in LotR. But there
: are 'foul fumes' leaking from the mounds of slag (which are later
: describes as 'poisonous') in Mordor, and when Frodo and Sam climb
: Orodruin, "the air was full of fumes; breathing was painful and
: difficult, and a dizziness came on them, so that they staggered and
: often fell".

So we agree that the air in general in Mordor was breathable but there
were places with fumes. If the word poisonous doesn't fit in a direct
quote, it can be replaced with a near synonyme. After all, I am at work
writing out of memory and have to put in 'close enough' words instead
of the exact ones.

Just trying to say that this could be the very place I am recalling.

[AC]

On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 10:21:44 +0000 (UTC),

Post by Johanna Katariina Rinne
: says...
:> If, as Boromir says at the Council of Elrond, the very air of Mordor is a
:> "poison gas," how could Frodo and Sam (and Gollum) have survived it?
: Because Frodo & Sam hadn't seen Peter Jackson's film. Boromir doesn't
: say this in the book.
I think I remember in some place it is said that Barad-Dur blows out
poisonous fumes, which refers to the clouds coming out of the volcano.
PJ perhaps had that in mind without remembering the exact quote.

Barad-dur in Sauron's tower and abode. It is Orodruin (Mount Doom) that
vomits flame, smoke, ash and lava.