Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul

[STEVESEG]

Balrogs, Sauron and the Istari are all Maiar. Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman and
Sauron all have names and individual personalties, yet Balrogs are, well,
Balrogs. They are (were) many and took shape as fire demons or spirits. If they
had names, they are forgotten or never mentioned.

I remember a thread where the reason for the Balrogs assuming the shape of fire
demons was mentioned, but have forgotten the answer. Something to do with
adopting the shape that best fit ones personality? If so, why so many Balrogs?
Why not ice demons or dragons? There is a theory that some dragons were in fact
Maiar. Was Smaug?

Another theory is that some were Orc or Goblin Chieftains. If so, what happened
to them? They can't die totally but perhaps the fate of Saruman is a clue. Once
cloaked within human (Orc/mortal) form, they are subject to having their power
dissipated.

And lastly, where were the Nazgul after Sauron's defeat on the slope of Mount
Doom? We know Sauron was formless for quite awhile but how could the Nazgul be
in the same state of being when they are mortal and Sauron is not? And didn't
they reform before Sauron and could they communicate with him when all were
disembodied?

Enough rambling ...

Steve Servello

[Jon Meltzer]

Post by STEVESEG
Balrogs, Sauron and the Istari are all Maiar. Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman and
Sauron all have names and individual personalties, yet Balrogs are, well,
Balrogs. They are (were) many and took shape as fire demons or spirits. If they
had names, they are forgotten or never mentioned.

Well, there's "Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs" ...

[STEVESEG]

Post by Jon Meltzer
Well, there's "Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs"

True enough. Is he the exception? And why no shes?

Steve S.

[Georg Schönegger]

Post by STEVESEG

Post by Jon Meltzer
Well, there's "Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs"

True enough. Is he the exception? And why no shes?
Steve S.

but there were she-balrogs: those with wings ...

georg

[STEVESEG]

but there were she-balrogs: those with >wings ...

sigh ...

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by STEVESEG

Post by Georg Schönegger
but there were she-balrogs: those with wings ...

sigh ...

You wanted a balrog thread without wings?
ROTFL!

[STEVESEG]

Post by STEVESEG
sigh ...
You wanted a balrog thread without >wings? ROTFL!

Truly, I should have known better <G>.

Steve S.

[cassandras morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges]

Post by Georg Schönegger

Post by STEVESEG

Post by Jon Meltzer
Well, there's "Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs"

True enough. Is he the exception? And why no shes?
Steve S.

but there were she-balrogs: those with wings ...

of course ive got wings
im a female

[timananda]

anges)
Organization: eden huntersstrand
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 23:44:59 -0800
Subject: Re: Maiar, Balrogs, Sauron, Istari and Nazgul

Post by Georg Schönegger

Post by STEVESEG

Post by Jon Meltzer
Well, there's "Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs"

True enough. Is he the exception? And why no shes?
Steve S.

but there were she-balrogs: those with wings ...

of course ive got wings
im a female

Maybe that's why balrogs are so angry... they're searching for the women
folk, like the ents.

Tim

[Mark Landin]

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 07:59:10 +0100, Georg Schönegger

Post by Georg Schönegger

Post by STEVESEG

Post by Jon Meltzer
Well, there's "Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs"

True enough. Is he the exception? And why no shes?
Steve S.

but there were she-balrogs: those with wings ...

And those are the only ones that bite and draw blood and spread
malaria. The males just fly around.

[Kristian Damm Jensen]

Jon Meltzer wrote:

<snip>

Post by Jon Meltzer
Well, there's "Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs" ...

Are we even certain, that he is a balrog? I totally agree that it
would be most unlikely that he wasn't, but do we a quote?

[Leithelas Eleryn]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen

Post by Jon Meltzer
Well, there's "Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs" ...

Are we even certain, that he is a balrog? I totally agree that it
would be most unlikely that he wasn't, but do we a quote?

Well, there is the line in the fight of Fingon and Gothmog... "At last
Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with
Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind him and cast a thong of fire
about him." (Silm, "Of the Fifth Battle") Slightly vague, and could
possibly refer to the fact of the Balrogs loosed upon the field a page
previous.

From another (and earlier) POV to Gothmog's race: going by LT1, while
likely not valid in Silmarillion or LotR-current mythology, but, is
still interesting to note... Gothmog (also called 'Kosomot') was cited
as being the son of Morgoth and 'Ulbandi'. (See CRT's notes at the end
of LT1, "The Coming of the Valar") In the index of LT2 we find Ulbandi

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Fluithin, who is there described as an Ogress.

So, short answer: Silmarillion canon Gothmog is a Balrog, LT canon
he's half-Valar half-ogre.

=====
Dan hi Elbereth Gilthoniel orthant cammad în od Uilos
bin fain a dúath dadlemmir lonnath phain;
a fuin eth thindor caeda na-falvath immen dad
a hith doba vírath e Girith Galad an-uir.
Gwannen hi Dor Belain, gwannen o Thrûn!
Navaer! Dor Belain hirithar aen allen.
~ Sindarin translation of "Galadriel's Lament"
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/language.htm

[NobodyMan]

Post by STEVESEG
And lastly, where were the Nazgul after Sauron's defeat on the slope of Mount
Doom? We know Sauron was formless for quite awhile but how could the Nazgul be
in the same state of being when they are mortal and Sauron is not? And didn't
they reform before Sauron and could they communicate with him when all were
disembodied?

Many questions that can be anwered here, but one that can be...

The Nazguls' fate was tied to the fate of the One Ring. As long as it
survived, they survived (just like their master Sauron).

[Pradera]

Post by NobodyMan

Post by STEVESEG
And lastly, where were the Nazgul after Sauron's defeat on the slope
of Mount Doom? We know Sauron was formless for quite awhile but how
could the Nazgul be in the same state of being when they are mortal
and Sauron is not? And didn't they reform before Sauron and could they
communicate with him when all were disembodied?

Many questions that can be anwered here, but one that can be...
The Nazguls' fate was tied to the fate of the One Ring.

Does this mean movie Arwen was becoming a Nazgul? *grin*

[Caeruleo]

Post by Pradera

Post by NobodyMan

Post by STEVESEG
And lastly, where were the Nazgul after Sauron's defeat on the slope
of Mount Doom? We know Sauron was formless for quite awhile but how
could the Nazgul be in the same state of being when they are mortal
and Sauron is not? And didn't they reform before Sauron and could they
communicate with him when all were disembodied?

Many questions that can be anwered here, but one that can be...
The Nazguls' fate was tied to the fate of the One Ring.

Does this mean movie Arwen was becoming a Nazgul? *grin*

Stoppit.

*g*

[AC]

On 21 Jan 2004 00:07:58 GMT,

Post by STEVESEG
Balrogs, Sauron and the Istari are all Maiar. Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman and
Sauron all have names and individual personalties, yet Balrogs are, well,
Balrogs. They are (were) many and took shape as fire demons or spirits. If they
had names, they are forgotten or never mentioned.

Gothmog is the only Balrog that we learn the name of. I'm sure we're seeing
a Nazgul-ism here, where only the chief was given any name or title.

Post by STEVESEG
I remember a thread where the reason for the Balrogs assuming the shape of fire
demons was mentioned, but have forgotten the answer. Something to do with
adopting the shape that best fit ones personality? If so, why so many Balrogs?
Why not ice demons or dragons? There is a theory that some dragons were in fact
Maiar. Was Smaug?

They were spirits of fire. Another spirit of fire was Arien, who guided the
Sun.

Post by STEVESEG
Another theory is that some were Orc or Goblin Chieftains. If so, what happened
to them? They can't die totally but perhaps the fate of Saruman is a clue. Once
cloaked within human (Orc/mortal) form, they are subject to having their power
dissipated.

Tolkien said that some of the Orcs of legend may very well have been Umaiar
in Orcish form. I think the ability to reform a physical body greatly
depended upon native power and how much had been used or dissipated. Sauron
was able, twice, to fashion himself a new physical form, while Morgoth, once
he had put forth most of his native might, was stuck in the one he had.

Post by STEVESEG
And lastly, where were the Nazgul after Sauron's defeat on the slope of Mount
Doom? We know Sauron was formless for quite awhile but how could the Nazgul be
in the same state of being when they are mortal and Sauron is not? And didn't
they reform before Sauron and could they communicate with him when all were
disembodied?

The Nazgul were mortal men who had been wraithified by Sauron. I'm assuming
that when the One was destroyed, they died truly and their spirits, like the
spirits of all mortal men doomed to die, departed Arda.

[Aris Katsaris]

Post by AC
On 21 Jan 2004 00:07:58 GMT,

Post by STEVESEG
Balrogs, Sauron and the Istari are all Maiar. Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman and
Sauron all have names and individual personalties, yet Balrogs are, well,
Balrogs. They are (were) many and took shape as fire demons or spirits. If they
had names, they are forgotten or never mentioned.

Gothmog is the only Balrog that we learn the name of.

In Narn i Hin Hurin, there's also the name of the Balrog Lungorthin,
if I remember it correctly.

Aris Katsaris

[Tamim]

AC <***@yahoo.ca> wrote:
snip

Post by AC
Gothmog is the only Balrog that we learn the name of. I'm sure we're seeing
a Nazgul-ism here, where only the chief was given any name or title.

Well AFAIK Khamul wasn't the chief ;)

snip

[Chris Kern]

Post by AC
On 21 Jan 2004 00:07:58 GMT,

Post by STEVESEG
Balrogs, Sauron and the Istari are all Maiar. Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman and
Sauron all have names and individual personalties, yet Balrogs are, well,
Balrogs. They are (were) many and took shape as fire demons or spirits. If they
had names, they are forgotten or never mentioned.

Gothmog is the only Balrog that we learn the name of. I'm sure we're seeing
a Nazgul-ism here, where only the chief was given any name or title.

How about Lungorthin "the Balrog of White Fire"? Granted that's from
1930's stuff, but it is there.

-Chris

[AC]

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:26:07 +0900,

Post by Chris Kern

Post by AC
On 21 Jan 2004 00:07:58 GMT,

Post by STEVESEG
Balrogs, Sauron and the Istari are all Maiar. Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman and
Sauron all have names and individual personalties, yet Balrogs are, well,
Balrogs. They are (were) many and took shape as fire demons or spirits. If they
had names, they are forgotten or never mentioned.

Gothmog is the only Balrog that we learn the name of. I'm sure we're seeing
a Nazgul-ism here, where only the chief was given any name or title.

How about Lungorthin "the Balrog of White Fire"? Granted that's from
1930's stuff, but it is there.

I had forgotten entirely about it.

[Conrad B Dunkerson]

Post by Chris Kern
How about Lungorthin "the Balrog of White Fire"? Granted that's from
1930's stuff, but it is there.

I believe the 'Balrog of White Fire' bit is an ICEism. The name
'Lungorthin' came from Tolkien, but not the rest of it.

[The American]

Post by Conrad B Dunkerson

Post by Chris Kern
How about Lungorthin "the Balrog of White Fire"? Granted that's from
1930's stuff, but it is there.

I believe the 'Balrog of White Fire' bit is an ICEism. The name
'Lungorthin' came from Tolkien, but not the rest of it.

What's an "ICEism"?

T.A.

[Bruce Tucker]

Post by The American
What's an "ICEism"?

An invention of Iron Crown Enterprises, the developers of Middle-earth
Role Playing and the associated games and modules.

My understanding is that because their materials were written to serve
the needs of a game-master, who needs hard and fast rules and answers on
the spot rather than analysis, competing theories, or pictures which are
accurate even if that means incomplete, they preferred to resolve
ambiguities and fill in gaps in the source material by simply making
things up and not bothering to inform the reader that they had done so.

[The American]

Post by Bruce Tucker

Post by The American
What's an "ICEism"?

An invention of Iron Crown Enterprises, the developers of Middle-earth
Role Playing and the associated games and modules.
My understanding is that because their materials were written to serve
the needs of a game-master, who needs hard and fast rules and answers on
the spot rather than analysis, competing theories, or pictures which are
accurate even if that means incomplete, they preferred to resolve
ambiguities and fill in gaps in the source material by simply making
things up and not bothering to inform the reader that they had done so.
--

Thanks.

T.A.

[R Dan Henry]

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:33:32 -0500, in a fit of madness "Bruce Tucker"

Post by Bruce Tucker

Post by The American
What's an "ICEism"?

An invention of Iron Crown Enterprises, the developers of Middle-earth
Role Playing and the associated games and modules.
My understanding is that because their materials were written to serve
the needs of a game-master, who needs hard and fast rules and answers on
the spot rather than analysis, competing theories, or pictures which are
accurate even if that means incomplete, they preferred to resolve
ambiguities and fill in gaps in the source material by simply making
things up and not bothering to inform the reader that they had done so.

What's with "not bothering to inform the reader that they had done so"?
In the first place, they never claimed to be references for Tolkien's
work, but for gaming. Obviously they needed to fill in. Secondly, their
work does include explicit disclaimers. They claim only to have been
very careful to avoid conflicting with existing published material,
stating that they have included "interpretive material".

However, the cover of Lords of Middle-Earth Vol.1 shows Gandalf facing
off against a wingless Balrog, so that's roused the ire of one segment
of fandom right there.

[David Rogers]

Post by The American
What's an "ICEism"?
T.A.

I would guess that this is a reference to Middle Earth Role Play
(MERP) games modules, published by Ice Crown Enterprises. They "filled
in" a lot of detail about places, people and things that only appeared
as "one liners" in the books.

Dave Rogers