Earendil in the sky tonight

[Stan Brown]

The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
Dipper.

Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
as the morning star, or both?

[A Tsar Is Born]

Post by Stan Brown
The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
Dipper.
Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
as the morning star, or both?

It seems likely enough to be the evening star, which is usually, after the
sun and the moon, the brightest object in the heavens, and I've always
assumed it was. If Tolkien could posit a Creation in which the sun and the
moon did not exist until lofted by the Valar, he could certainly do without
other planets.

Don't forget the Plough.

I don't think anyone ever does name constellations -- just individual stars.
I'm not sure astronomy (or astrology) was up Tolkien's alley at all.

Tsar Parmathule

[Alison]

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 05:24:19 GMT, "A Tsar Is Born"

Post by A Tsar Is Born

Post by Stan Brown
The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
Dipper.
Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
as the morning star, or both?

It seems likely enough to be the evening star, which is usually, after the
sun and the moon, the brightest object in the heavens, and I've always
assumed it was. If Tolkien could posit a Creation in which the sun and the
moon did not exist until lofted by the Valar, he could certainly do without
other planets.
Don't forget the Plough.

The Plough is known as the Big Dipper in some parts of the world.


--
Alison

[coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges]

Post by Alison
The Plough is known as the Big Dipper in some parts of the world.

as paul mccartney pointed out

earendil and morgil are alright tonight

[Shanahan]

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 05:24:19 GMT, "A Tsar Is Born"

Post by A Tsar Is Born

Post by Stan Brown
The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
Dipper.
Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
as the morning star, or both?

It seems likely enough to be the evening star, which is usually, after the
sun and the moon, the brightest object in the heavens, and I've always
assumed it was. If Tolkien could posit a Creation in which the sun and the
moon did not exist until lofted by the Valar, he could certainly do without
other planets.
Don't forget the Plough.
I don't think anyone ever does name constellations -- just individual stars.
I'm not sure astronomy (or astrology) was up Tolkien's alley at all.
Tsar Parmathule

Do you mean no one in the book names any constellations? I think
Remirrath, the Netted Stars, are probably a constellation (the Pleiades?).
Likewise Menelvagor/Orion 'with his shining belt', and the Sickle/Plough.

[Shanahan]

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 05:24:19 GMT, "A Tsar Is Born"

Post by A Tsar Is Born

Post by Stan Brown
The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
Dipper.
Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
as the morning star, or both?

It seems likely enough to be the evening star, which is usually, after the
sun and the moon, the brightest object in the heavens, and I've always
assumed it was. If Tolkien could posit a Creation in which the sun and the
moon did not exist until lofted by the Valar, he could certainly do without
other planets.
Don't forget the Plough.
I don't think anyone ever does name constellations -- just individual stars.
I'm not sure astronomy (or astrology) was up Tolkien's alley at all.
Tsar Parmathule

Do you mean no one in the book names any constellations? I think
Remirrath, the Netted Stars, are probably a constellation (the Pleiades?).
Likewise Menelvagor/Orion 'with his shining belt', and the Sickle/Plough.

[the softrat]

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:26:43 -0500, Stan Brown

Post by Stan Brown
The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
Dipper.
Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
as the morning star, or both?

The Answer is:

YES!

a) Earendil is Venus.
b) Venus is the Morning Star.
c) Venus is the Evening Star.

Because of their orbits, inside the orbit of Earth with respect to the
sun, both Mercury and Venus may appear as a Morning Star (a herald of
sunrise) or an Evening Star (setting shortly after the Sun). But Venus
is much brighter than Mercury and easier to see because it gets
(visually from Earth) farther from the Sun.



the softrat
"LotR: You've seen the epic. Now experience the Whole Story!"
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
Discordianism: Where reality is a figment of your imagination

[Stan Brown]

Post by the softrat
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:26:43 -0500, Stan Brown

Post by Stan Brown
Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
as the morning star, or both?

a) Earendil is Venus.
b) Venus is the Morning Star.
c) Venus is the Evening Star.

Well, of course I know that "the" morning star and "the" evening
star are the same planet. (There's a second "morning star"/"evening
star" combo, of course: Mercury. But it's visible a smaller
proportion of the time and less easy to see.)

My question was whether the _Elves_ knew that they were the same.
Within recorded history, Greek astronomers did not. I'm not sure
when they realized that the two were the same planet.

Presumably if the Elves did not know that the two were the same,
then the Evening Star would have been Eärendil since his ship rose
in the West (as seen from Middle-earth).

[Matthew Bladen]

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:29:13 -0500, Stan Brown
(***@fastmail.fm) said:

[snip]

Post by Stan Brown
My question was whether the _Elves_ knew that they were the same.
Within recorded history, Greek astronomers did not. I'm not sure
when they realized that the two were the same planet.
Presumably if the Elves did not know that the two were the same,
then the Evening Star would have been Eärendil since his ship rose
in the West (as seen from Middle-earth).

Letter #297:

"To my mind the A-S uses [of Earendel] seem plainly to indicate that it
was a star presaging the dawn (at any rate in English tradition): that
is what we now call _Venus_: the morning-star as it may be seen shining
brilliantly in the dawn, before the actual rising of the Sun. This is at
any rate how I took it. Before 1914 I wrote a 'poem' upon Earendel who
launched his ship like a bright spark from the havens of the Sun. I
adopted him into my mythology - in which he became a prime figure as a
mariner, and eventually as a herald star, and a sign of hope to men.
_Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima_ (II 329) 'hail Earendil brightest of
Stars' is derived at long remove from _Éala Éarendel engla beorhtast_."

So if it has to be one or the other, it will be the morning star.

As a tangential point, I wonder what Frodo was supposed to be
'accessing' when he was inspired to cry "Aiya Earendil elenion
ancalima!" in Shelob's lair, since he 'knew not what he had spoken' and
another voice spoke through his own. I assume the line would have come
from a 'written-up' version of the story of Earendil and the War of
Wrath - perhaps as a battle-cry?

[Stan Brown]

Post by Matthew Bladen
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:29:13 -0500, Stan Brown

Post by Stan Brown
My question was whether the _Elves_ knew that they were the same.
Within recorded history, Greek astronomers did not. I'm not sure
when they realized that the two were the same planet.
Presumably if the Elves did not know that the two were the same,
then the Evening Star would have been Eärendil since his ship rose
in the West (as seen from Middle-earth).

"To my mind the A-S uses [of Earendel] seem plainly to indicate that it
was a star presaging the dawn (at any rate in English tradition): that
is what we now call _Venus_: the morning-star as it may be seen shining
brilliantly in the dawn, before the actual rising of the Sun."
So if it has to be one or the other, it will be the morning star.

Thanks. I must have read that passage last spring, but I didn't
remember it at all.

Post by Matthew Bladen
As a tangential point, I wonder what Frodo was supposed to be
'accessing' when he was inspired to cry "Aiya Earendil elenion
ancalima!" in Shelob's lair,

I have wondered the same thing. Perhaps that came from the same
source as his "prophetic" dreams? -- not that that's much of an
answer, of course.

[Belba Grubb from Stock]

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:29:13 -0500, Stan Brown

Post by Stan Brown
My question was whether the _Elves_ knew that they were the same.
Within recorded history, Greek astronomers did not. I'm not sure
when they realized that the two were the same planet.
Presumably if the Elves did not know that the two were the same,
then the Evening Star would have been Eärendil since his ship rose
in the West (as seen from Middle-earth).

The appearance of the "morning star" and the "evening star" is so
similiar and so brilliant, Elves likely would have known the two were
the same:

"...most often was he seen at morning or at evening,
glimmering in sunrise or sunset..."

Post by Stan Brown
Mercury. But it's visible a smaller proportion of the time and less easy to see.)

One wonders if that would have been Elwing, at least in the evening,
"...like a white bird, shining, rose-stained in the sunset, as she
soared in joy to greet the coming of Vingilot to haven." Perhaps
that's pushing it too much; did the Elves of the Lonely Isle just
mistake a white bird seen one sunset for her?

Barb

[the softrat]

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 18:18:38 -0600, Belba Grubb from Stock

Post by Matthew Bladen
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:29:13 -0500, Stan Brown

Post by Stan Brown
Mercury. But it's visible a smaller proportion of the time and less easy to see.)

One wonders if that would have been Elwing, at least in the evening,
"...like a white bird, shining, rose-stained in the sunset, as she
soared in joy to greet the coming of Vingilot to haven." Perhaps
that's pushing it too much; did the Elves of the Lonely Isle just
mistake a white bird seen one sunset for her?

I have always taken Elwing to be the planet Mercury.

the softrat
"LotR: You've seen the epic. Now experience the Whole Story!"
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
I don't have a solution, but I admire the problem

[Kristian Damm Jensen]

--
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
<oe-qf-sig>

Post by Stan Brown
The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
Dipper.
Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
as the morning star, or both?
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm

[Kristian Damm Jensen]

Ah, *that's* the diamond Lucy was looking for.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Stan Brown
The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
Dipper.
Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
as the morning star, or both?

Careful now!

Next thng you know you'll be saying that Earendil is Satan!

[Douglas Eckhart]

Post by the softrat
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:26:43 -0500, Stan Brown

Post by Stan Brown
The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
Dipper.
Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
as the morning star, or both?

Careful now!
Next thng you know you'll be saying that Earendil is Satan!

Hehe, exactly, since 'Lucifer' is the Roman name for Venus as the Morning
Star (Lucifer = 'Light bearer'). This is way before the Christians took his
name for the development of their Satan figure.
Lucifer is mentioned in Ovid among other texts.

However, if Lucifer was Venus as 'Morning star' what was Venus as 'Evening
Star' called?
Arwen? or is that Evenstar... ;-)

Douglas

[Conrad B Dunkerson]

Post by Steve Hayes
Careful now!
Next thng you know you'll be saying that Earendil is Satan!

Hmmm... someone wrote an essay on that once. Who was that? Oh yeah, it
was me. :]

-------------------------------------------------------------
"Eala Earendel engla beorhtast
Offer middangeard monnum sended."
Cynewulf's Christ I, ll.104-105

From these words Tolkien's Middle Earth was born. Back in 1913 they
inspired a young man in his early twenties to create the character of
Earendil, the earliest stories of Middle Earth, and the first rudiments of
the language that would become Quenya. But where did the name come from
originally, and why is Earendil associated with the planet Venus?

"In the Prose Edda it is told how Thor carried Orwendel from Jotunheim in
a basket on his back; Orwendel's toe stuck out of the basket, and got
frozen; Thor broke it off, and flung it at the sky, and made a star of it,
which is called Orvandels-ta. In Anglo-Saxon glosses "earendel" (cp.
Epinal gloss.), or "oerendil" (cp. Erfurt gloss.), is interpreted jubar,
but "dawn " or " morning-star " would probably be a better rendering...

Orvandill, Earendel, etc., are probably rightly compared with Sanskrit
usra the morning-red; Latin' aurora; Greek ids. It is interesting to note
that the old Germanic spring- goddess "Austrô" (whose existence has been
evolved from Bede's "Eostre," i.e. West Saxon "Eastre"; cp. De Temporum
Ratione, c. xv.) must have been identical with usra aurora, etc.; as Kluge
points out (v. Etymologisches Worterbuch sub Ostern), the old
Indo-Germanic Aurora became among the Germans a spring-goddess in place of
a dawn-goddess: the Christian festival commemorating Christ's resurrection
coincided with the pagan festival of Easter, which was celebrated at the
vernal equinox' whence the transference of the pagan name to Christi an ~
purposes. "Earendel" and "Easter" have evidently the same root, and both
illustrate the same interesting compromise between Old and New (cp. Mogk;
Paul's Grundriss, vol. iii. p. 374). On the other hand, Symons (Paul's
Grundriss, vol. iii. p. 733) supports the older view of Mullenhoff' and
rejects the theory that 0rwendel = dawn-god' and points to its oldest form
Auriuuandalus (gen. Auriuuandali, found in Lombardic, anno 720 as
connected with old Norse, aurr, moisture; Anglo-Saxon ear, sea; he holds
that the hero's name = the wanderer on the sea, the seafarer; a sort of
Germanic Ulysses."

Note that Tolkien, ever the philogolist, adapted BOTH of these
interpretations... Earendil as the source of a new star AND a wanderer of
the sea. Both 'ray of light' and 'sea lover'. Also, by this, 'Easter'
might, amongst fans of Tolkien, be called Earendil's Day. :)

This 'dawn star' was, in fact, the planet Venus - which shines brightly
enough to be seen in the pre-dawn light prior to Sunrise (and Sunset)...
hence the 'Morning Star'. It is considered a herald of the dawn, as was
(symbolically) Earendil.

The planet Venus, is of course named for the Roman Goddess - who was
herself closely associated with the Greek Aphrodite, amongst whose titles
were 'Queen of Heaven' and 'the morning and evening star'... in reference
to that same celestial body which now bears her name. Many other
goddesses and figures of myth are associated with this same powerful
symbol. Even Lucifer, the 'fallen angel' of Christian mythology is
DIRECTLY descended from the morning star;

"How art thou fallen from the heavens, Son of the Morning, how art thou
cast down unto the earth, thou who didst cast down the nations."
Isaih 14:12

This mocking of a mortal king who took the title 'Hillel' (in the original
Hebrew), 'Son of the Morning' was translated to Phosphorous, the Morning
Star, in Greek and from there to the Latin name for the Morning Star...
Lucifer - which name does not actually appear anywhere in the Bible or
Judeo-Christian writings prior to this mis-translation. It was just the
Roman word for 'Light Bringer', the morning star which heralds the dawn.

Jesus too is associated with the Morning Star. In addition to Cynewulf's
hymn to Christ and the mutual connections to Easter there are;

"I am the root and offspring of David, the bright morning star."
Revelation 22:16

"After being converted to Christianity they regarded the Earendel star as
a symbol of Christ. The Church had already sanctified such a view by
applying to Christ the second epistle of Peter i. 19: "We have also a more
sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a
light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star
arise in your hearts". The morning star became, as we read in a Latin
hymn, "typus Christi"."

And, of course;

"The use of earendel in A-S Christian symbolism as herald of the rise of
the true Sun in Christ is completely alien to my use. The Fall of Man is
in the past and off stage; the Redemption of Man in the far future. We are
in a time when the One God, Eru, is known to exist by the wise, but is not
approachable save by or through the Valar, though He is still remembered
in (unspoken) prayer by those of Numenorean descent."
Letters #297

[Robert J. Kolker]

Post by Stan Brown
The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
Dipper.
Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
as the morning star, or both?

Both. Its two names indicates the time of day when it is seen. It took a
long time for people to realized that the T.M.S and T.E.S were one and
the same body.

Bob Kolker

[gbblob]

Post by Robert J. Kolker

Post by Stan Brown
The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
always confused me, except for Menelvagor=Orion and Sickle=Big
Dipper.
Is Earendil = Venus? If so, is it Venus as the evening star or Venus
as the morning star, or both?

Both. Its two names indicates the time of day when it is seen. It took a
long time for people to realized that the T.M.S and T.E.S were one and
the same body.
Bob Kolker

Strictly speaking Earendil is NOT Venus. Earendil has a Silmaril bound
to his brow as he sails Vingilot in the sky. It is the Silmaril that
we see.

[Robert J. Kolker]

Post by gbblob
Strictly speaking Earendil is NOT Venus. Earendil has a Silmaril bound
to his brow as he sails Vingilot in the sky. It is the Silmaril that
we see.

The next thing, you will be telling me the Earth is flat and the Sun is the
seed pod from a tree.

Bob Kolker
\

[Conrad B Dunkerson]

Post by Stan Brown
The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
always confused me

Well, we can't have that... so I did a little research;

Below is a list of heavenly bodies mentioned in Tolkien’s writings. Where
Tolkien specifically identified the modern name I have given that name and
a reference to Tolkien’s identification in parenthesis. In cases where an
identification is partially speculative or disputed I have listed my best
guess, placed a number in parenthesis at the end of the line and attached
corresponding numbered comments after the list. In other cases Tolkien
equated two names or changed one to another and I have given a reference
to where this occurred in brackets. I have consolidated minor variations,
such as where ‘k’ was changed to ‘c’ or ‘Sickle of the Gods’ vs ‘Sickle of
the Valar’, to a single entry under the ‘common’ (in my estimation) form.
Where a particular reference occurs in multiple books I have tried to
include the primary source or the most ‘common’ of the books. I do not
include astronomical names from the Notion Club Papers. All page numbers
refer to HMCO first editions. Note that many of these identifications
come from the ‘Qenya Lexicon’ (BoLT) and thus are very early constructions
which may well have been discarded.



Alcarinque = Jupiter (1)

Anarrima = ?

Anor = Sun (RotK 437)

Borgil = Aldebaran (2)

Burning Briar = Valacirca [MR 160]

Carnil = Mars (1)

Daimord = Orion (BoLT 268)

Durin’s Crown = Plough (RotK 439-440)

Earendil’s Star = Venus (Letters 385)
Edegil = Valacirca [LR 379]

Eksiqilta = Orion’s Belt (PE-12 35)

Ekta- = Orion’s Belt (PE-12 35)

Elemmire = Mercury (1)

Gil = Sirius (BoLT 256)

Gil-Amdir = Gil-Estel [WotJ 246]

Gil-Estel = Earendil’s Star [Silm 250]

Gil-Orestel = Gil-Estel [WotJ 246]

Gil-Orrain = Gil-Estel [WotJ 246]

Helluin = Sirius (Silm 335)

Ithil = Moon (RotK 392)

Itselokte = Pleiades (PE-12 43)

Luinil = Uranus (1)

Lumbar = Saturn (1)

Menelmacar = Orion (RotK 391)

Menelvagor = Orion (RotK 391)

Mordo = Telimektar [PE-12 62]

Morwen = Jupiter (BoLT 261)

Morwinyon = Arcturus (BoLT 261)

Nenar = Neptune (1)

Nielluin = Sirius (BoLT 262)

Nierninwa = Sirius (BoLT 262)

Otselen = Valacirca [LR 379]

Remmirath = Pleiades (3)

Seven Butterflies = Valacirca [BoLT 133]

Seven Stars = Pleiades and Sickle of the Valar (4)

Sickle of the Valar = Valacirca [Silm 48]

Silindo = Jupiter (BolT 265)

Silmo = Moon (PE-12 83)

Silver Sickle [BoLT 133]

Sithaloth = Pleiades (BoLT 254)

Soronume = Lyra (5)

Taimavar = Orion (BoLT 268)

Taimondo = Orion (BoLT 268)

Telimbektar = Orion (BoLT 268)

Telimektar = Orion (BoLT 268)

Telumehtar = Orion (RotK 391)

Telumendil = ?

Til = ?

Timbridhil = Valacirca [LoB 169]

Ur = Sun (BoLT 85)

Valacirca = Great Bear / Ursa Major (LR 379)

Wilwarin = Cassiopeia (6)





1 – See MR 435. Tolkien seems to have gotten partly through mapping these
names (which still appeared in the final Silmarillion) to actual planets
before stopping. Alcarinque, Carnil, and Elemmire are agreed by most to
be Jupiter, Mars, and Mercury. Christopher Tolkien objects that Saturn is
too dim in the sky to be Lumbar, one of the ‘brighter stars’ Varda was
said to be creating in this passage. He has a similar objection to Nenar
and Luinil. Further, Tolkien placed an ‘N’, presumably for ‘Neptune’,
above Nenar, but then crossed it out. I suspect that Tolkien felt the
connection between ‘Nenar’, which might be translated ‘water lord’ or
‘high water’, and the god Neptune was a bit too direct and at that point
abandoned his brief examination of these relationships. Some have
suggested that since Tolkien crossed out the ‘N’ the last two planets
should be reversed, Luinil = Neptune and Nenar = Uranus. I prefer to keep
the apparent original configuration and just note that ALL SIX of these
relationships appear to have been little more than a passing thought.



2 – See FotR 91. Borgil is described as a bright red star which rises
between Remmirath (Pleiades) and Menelvagor (Orion). Some have suggested
that this could be Betelgeuse, but that star is actually part of the
constellation Orion rather than appearing over the horizon before it.
Others have suggested Mars and that is possible except that it would not
always appear in that position. Also, ‘Aldebaran’ means ‘the follower’ in
the sense of ‘follower of the Pleiades’. Of course, all of these
possibilities are speculation based on the color and position between two
positively identified constellations.



3 – See FotR 91. Remmirath is called ‘the Netted Stars’… as are the
Pleiades. Remmirath rises before Menelvagor (Orion)… as do the Pleiades.



4 – See BoLT 35. In the poem ‘Kortirion among the Trees’ Tolkien refers
to the Pleiades by name. However, then on pages 38 and 42 he rewrites the
passage and substitutes ‘Seven Stars’ for ‘Pleiades’. The Pleiades are of
course a collection of seven stars called ‘the seven sisters’. Also see
LoB 251 where ‘Seven Stars’ is equated with the Burning Briar and Silm 174
where it is equated with the Sickle of the Valar.



5 – See Silm 48. The name means something like ‘descending Eagle’, which
is also an old name of Lyra. The constellation Aquila, ‘eagle’, is also
often suggested.



6 – See Silm 354. Some of the Silm index entries were written by JRR
Tolkien, but even if this one were it indicates that Wilwarin is only
“possibly” Cassiopeia.



Note: I do not list Durin’s Crown as a disputed item because, while VT 12
and various web sources have described it as an unknown, Tolkien’s LotR
index entry (RotK 439-440) clearly identifies it as the Plough (as
correctly noted by Foster’s ‘Complete Guide’ and the Mellonath Daeron web
star-list).

[Stan Brown]

Post by Conrad B Dunkerson

Post by Stan Brown
The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
always confused me

Well, we can't have that... so I did a little research;
Below is a list of heavenly bodies mentioned in Tolkien?s writings.

First: WOW! Thank you! I've saved a copy on my own computer for
myself.

Steuard, any chance this could find a permanent place on
tolkien.slimy -- assuming of course that Conrad is willing?

Post by Conrad B Dunkerson
Durin?s Crown = Plough (RotK 439-440)

I get confused by UK-English constellation names too :-) so I looked
this one up. Interestingly, the _first_ hit from "define: plough" in
Google was for the constellation, " a group of seven bright stars in
the constellation Ursa Major." That must be what US folks generally
call "the Big Dipper".

It seems an awfully strange shape for a crown! "Durin's Helm"
wouldn't seem so strange to me: the three stars in a curve could be
a neck-guard.

Are these the stars that Durin (and later Frodo and Gimli) saw in
the Mirrormere? (See around the second page of LotR II 6.)

"At first they could see nothing. Then slowly they saw the forms of
the encircling mountains mirrored in a profound blue, and the peaks
were like plumes of white flame above them; beyond there was a space
of sky. There like jewels sunk in the deep shone glinting stars,
though sunlight was in the sky above. Of their own stooping forms no
shadow could be seen.

"'O Kheled-zâram fair and wonderful! ' said Gimli. 'There lies the
Crown of Durin till he wakes.'"

When Gimli said "Crown of Durin" was he talking about an actual
crown, or just metaphorically because that constellation could be
seen in the lake even in daylight?

Last year I went to a performance at our community theatre early in
the fall. It was an exceptionally clear and calm night. During
intermission I walked to the edge of the nearby lake, and could see
start shining bright in its surface. I had never seen anything like
it before.

[Conrad B Dunkerson]

Post by Stan Brown
First: WOW! Thank you!

Welcome. Actually, I've noticed some apparent contradictions and
seemingly unfounded conclusions about the astronomy over the years and
wanted to look up the details anyway.

Post by Stan Brown
Steuard, any chance this could find a permanent place on
tolkien.slimy -- assuming of course that Conrad is willing?

S'ok by me.

Post by Stan Brown
I get confused by UK-English constellation names too :-) so I looked
this one up. Interestingly, the _first_ hit from "define: plough" in
Google was for the constellation, " a group of seven bright stars in
the constellation Ursa Major." That must be what US folks generally
call "the Big Dipper".

Yes, all the same thing... though Ursa Major actually contains more
stars than just the seven of the 'Big Dipper' / 'Plough' / 'Wain'.

Post by Stan Brown
It seems an awfully strange shape for a crown! "Durin's Helm"
wouldn't seem so strange to me: the three stars in a curve could be
a neck-guard.

Yeah, they don't look much like a crown. Nor do they match the
different shapes Tolkien arrayed them in on the Doors of Durin.

Post by Stan Brown
Are these the stars that Durin (and later Frodo and Gimli) saw in
the Mirrormere? (See around the second page of LotR II 6.)

Several sources I've read indicate yes and it seems likely to me, but I
can't think of a definitive statement to this effect offhand. Still,
Durin saw the stars in Kheled-Zaram, decided to make his halls there,
and then adopted the stars of the Plough as emblems... it seems likely
there is a connection.

Post by Stan Brown
When Gimli said "Crown of Durin" was he talking about an actual
crown, or just metaphorically because that constellation could be
seen in the lake even in daylight?

I've wondered about that myself. I suspect it was only metaphorical,
but there could be an actual crown down there as well. An interesting
note; in an earlier draft when Galadriel was prophecizing that Gimli's
'hands would run with gold, but gold would have no power over him' she
also added a line saying 'dark are the waters of Kheled-Zaram but you
may one day see there a light'.

Post by Stan Brown
Last year I went to a performance at our community theatre early in
the fall. It was an exceptionally clear and calm night. During
intermission I walked to the edge of the nearby lake, and could see
start shining bright in its surface. I had never seen anything like
it before.

I suspect Tolkien saw something of the kind and this was the inspiration
for the 'pool of glass'.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Conrad B Dunkerson
An interesting
note; in an earlier draft when Galadriel was prophecizing that Gimli's
'hands would run with gold, but gold would have no power over him' she
also added a line saying 'dark are the waters of Kheled-Zaram but you
may one day see there a light'.

Good thing Tolkien edited it out. It's not much of a prophecy since
Gimli had already seen the seven stars! :-)

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Conrad B Dunkerson

Post by Stan Brown
The correspondence between Elvish names for stars and our names has
always confused me

Well, we can't have that... so I did a little research;
Below is a list of heavenly bodies mentioned in Tolkien?s writings.

First: WOW! Thank you! I've saved a copy on my own computer for
myself.

<snip>

Yes Conrad. Bravo! Definite FAQ material.