Gandalf/Gandolfo

[Paul Ciszek]

In another newsgroup, a native speaker of Italian informed me that the
Italian name "Gandolfo" is Germanic in origin. That's not quite the same
thing as saying that it is definately derived from the Eddic "Gandalf",
but I was wondering if anyone here could provide any further connection.
(She said that according to one of those what-does-your-name-mean books,
"Gandolfo" means "wolf" or "warrior", not "magical elf". I know that
books of that type tend to be very inacurate, so I still hold out some
hope that the authors of the book had no idea what they were talking
about.)

[RPN]

Post by Paul Ciszek
In another newsgroup, a native speaker of Italian informed me that the
Italian name "Gandolfo" is Germanic in origin. That's not quite the same
thing as saying that it is definately derived from the Eddic "Gandalf",
but I was wondering if anyone here could provide any further connection.
(She said that according to one of those what-does-your-name-mean books,
"Gandolfo" means "wolf" or "warrior", not "magical elf". I know that
books of that type tend to be very inacurate, so I still hold out some
hope that the authors of the book had no idea what they were talking
about.)

I would assume that it's derived from the Germanic name Gandulf (the
usual form used these days in naming people being Gandolf), in which
the first element means "wand," just as in "Gandalf," and the second
element means "wolf." So a magic wolf rather than a magic elf.

RPN

[Mark Edelstein]

Post by Paul Ciszek
In another newsgroup, a native speaker of Italian informed me that the
Italian name "Gandolfo" is Germanic in origin. That's not quite the same
thing as saying that it is definately derived from the Eddic "Gandalf",
but I was wondering if anyone here could provide any further connection.
(She said that according to one of those what-does-your-name-mean books,
"Gandolfo" means "wolf" or "warrior", not "magical elf". I know that
books of that type tend to be very inacurate, so I still hold out some
hope that the authors of the book had no idea what they were talking
about.)

More accurately it's derived from the translation of some proto-Adunaic
language somewhat akin to that of men of Dale (since Rohirric is
"closer" to Westron). See Appendix F for all the happy details. I wish
I had my UT with me, it has some interesting comments on Gandalf's
other names.

[Dirk Thierbach]

Post by Mark Edelstein

Post by Paul Ciszek
In another newsgroup, a native speaker of Italian informed me that the
Italian name "Gandolfo" is Germanic in origin. That's not quite the same
thing as saying that it is definately derived from the Eddic "Gandalf",

More accurately it's derived from the translation of some proto-Adunaic
language somewhat akin to that of men of Dale (since Rohirric is
"closer" to Westron).

Paul was asking for the story-external derivation, not for the
story-internal one.

- Dirk

[Paul Ciszek]

Post by RPN

Post by Paul Ciszek
In another newsgroup, a native speaker of Italian informed me that the
Italian name "Gandolfo" is Germanic in origin. That's not quite the same
thing as saying that it is definately derived from the Eddic "Gandalf",
but I was wondering if anyone here could provide any further connection.
(She said that according to one of those what-does-your-name-mean books,
"Gandolfo" means "wolf" or "warrior", not "magical elf". I know that
books of that type tend to be very inacurate, so I still hold out some
hope that the authors of the book had no idea what they were talking
about.)

I would assume that it's derived from the Germanic name Gandulf (the
usual form used these days in naming people being Gandolf), in which
the first element means "wand," just as in "Gandalf," and the second
element means "wolf." So a magic wolf rather than a magic elf.

1) You are saying that "Gandolf" is a contemporary German name?! I had
no idea.

2) Does this mean "Gandolf" means "werewolf"?

[Dirk Thierbach]

Post by Paul Ciszek

Post by RPN
I would assume that it's derived from the Germanic name Gandulf (the
usual form used these days in naming people being Gandolf), in which
the first element means "wand," just as in "Gandalf," and the second
element means "wolf." So a magic wolf rather than a magic elf.

1) You are saying that "Gandolf" is a contemporary German name?! I had
no idea.

It's certainly not contemporary. (As a native German speaker I am
pretty sure about that :-)

Post by Paul Ciszek
2) Does this mean "Gandolf" means "werewolf"?

Unlikely.

- Dirk

[RPN]

Post by Paul Ciszek

Post by RPN

Post by Paul Ciszek
In another newsgroup, a native speaker of Italian informed me that the
Italian name "Gandolfo" is Germanic in origin. That's not quite the same
thing as saying that it is definately derived from the Eddic "Gandalf",
but I was wondering if anyone here could provide any further connection.
(She said that according to one of those what-does-your-name-mean books,
"Gandolfo" means "wolf" or "warrior", not "magical elf". I know that
books of that type tend to be very inacurate, so I still hold out some
hope that the authors of the book had no idea what they were talking
about.)

I would assume that it's derived from the Germanic name Gandulf (the
usual form used these days in naming people being Gandolf), in which
the first element means "wand," just as in "Gandalf," and the second
element means "wolf." So a magic wolf rather than a magic elf.

1) You are saying that "Gandolf" is a contemporary German name?! I had
no idea.

I'm not saying it's a common name, but Google shows that there are some
Gandolfs and Gandulfs around (lots of hits for a director named Gandulf
Hennig). Actually, Gandolf seems more common as a surname than as a
given name.

Post by Paul Ciszek
2) Does this mean "Gandolf" means "werewolf"?

I was being a bit disingenuous with the "magic wolf" comment. I
subscribe to the notion that two-element Germanic names don't actually
"mean" some combination of the elements' meanings; I think they were
just created as combinations from a set of standard name parts. My own
name (Robert), for instance, is a combination of elements meaning
"fame" and "bright" (also seen in such names as Roger [fame + spear]
and Roderick [fame + rule] and Egbert [sword + bright] and Herbert
[army + bright]), but that doesn't mean that it signifies "bright fame"
or "famous brightness" or the like, no matter what the baby-naming
guides might say.

RPN

[Öjevind Lång]

"RPN" <***@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet news:***@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

[snip]

Post by RPN
I was being a bit disingenuous with the "magic wolf" comment. I
subscribe to the notion that two-element Germanic names don't actually
"mean" some combination of the elements' meanings; I think they were
just created as combinations from a set of standard name parts. My own
name (Robert), for instance, is a combination of elements meaning
"fame" and "bright" (also seen in such names as Roger [fame + spear]
and Roderick [fame + rule] and Egbert [sword + bright] and Herbert
[army + bright]), but that doesn't mean that it signifies "bright fame"
or "famous brightness" or the like, no matter what the baby-naming
guides might say.

Often the Germanic peoples simply combined two name elements without any
regard for the meaning. A good example is Fridwulf (OE Friþewulf), which
meant "Peace-wulf".
There is also a name Gundolf; I don't know how it fits with Gandalf and
Gandolf. Perhaps our Gandalf had two brothers? Perhaps that's how he could
travel so fast? There were actually three wizards who rode in relays.

Öjevind

[Dirk Thierbach]

Post by Paul Ciszek
In another newsgroup, a native speaker of Italian informed me that the
Italian name "Gandolfo" is Germanic in origin. That's not quite the same
thing as saying that it is definately derived from the Eddic "Gandalf",
but I was wondering if anyone here could provide any further connection.
(She said that according to one of those what-does-your-name-mean books,
"Gandolfo" means "wolf" or "warrior", not "magical elf". I know that
books of that type tend to be very inacurate, so I still hold out some
hope that the authors of the book had no idea what they were talking
about.)

I'd say that the latter is quite probable. The element -wolf, -wulf is
certainly of Germanic origin, so maybe the author of the book imagined
a derivation from Gand(w)olf. But I cannot think of anything that
would resemble a Germanic word for "warrior". Also, at least in modern
German, the element "gand" is completely alien.

So Tolkien's derivation from the nordic gandr-alf seems a lot better,
at least as far as I am able to judge it.

- Dirk

[Seymour C. Moore]

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Paul Ciszek
In another newsgroup, a native speaker of Italian informed me that
the Italian name "Gandolfo" is Germanic in origin. That's not quite
the same thing as saying that it is definately derived from the Eddic
"Gandalf", but I was wondering if anyone here could provide any
further connection. (She said that according to one of those
what-does-your-name-mean books, "Gandolfo" means "wolf" or "warrior",
not "magical elf". I know that books of that type tend to be very
inacurate, so I still hold out some hope that the authors of the book
had no idea what they were talking about.)

. Also, at least in modern
German, the element "gand" is completely alien.

What about the surname "Gander"?

C

[Dirk Thierbach]

Post by Seymour C. Moore

Also, at least in modern German, the element "gand" is completely
alien.

What about the surname "Gander"?

I haven't heard this name before. A quick look in the phone book
cannot find anyone with this name, either, so if it is a valid name,
a least it's not very frequent. There is the surname "Ganter" or "Ganther",
possibly with other spelling variations; maybe "Gander" is just such
a variation. "Ganter" is also the name of the male goose (and that
meaning is possibly connected to the surname). However, it derives
from the element "gans", not "gand".

- Dirk

[Christopher Kreuzer]

<snip>

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Seymour C. Moore
What about the surname "Gander"?

I haven't heard this name before.

<snip>

Post by Dirk Thierbach
"Ganter" is also the name of the male goose (and that
meaning is possibly connected to the surname). However, it derives
from the element "gans", not "gand".

Gander is an archaic(?) English word for male goose. I've not encountered it
as a surname, but I don't think it would be impossible. Hey, segue into
talking about swans, and we can link up with another ongoing thread!

Christopher

[Paul Arthur]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Dirk Thierbach
"Ganter" is also the name of the male goose (and that
meaning is possibly connected to the surname). However, it derives
from the element "gans", not "gand".

Gander is an archaic(?) English word for male goose.

Not archaic, as it's still in common usage.

[Emma Pease]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Seymour C. Moore
What about the surname "Gander"?

I haven't heard this name before.

<snip>

Post by Dirk Thierbach
"Ganter" is also the name of the male goose (and that
meaning is possibly connected to the surname). However, it derives
from the element "gans", not "gand".

Gander is an archaic(?) English word for male goose. I've not encountered it
as a surname, but I don't think it would be impossible. Hey, segue into
talking about swans, and we can link up with another ongoing thread!

I wouldn't call it archaic; I think those who deal with geese still
use it and I certainly learned it young. Goose btw is the word for a
female goose (goose/gander, duck/drake, falcon/tercel), the generic is
female; the opposite of man/woman where the generic is the male.

Emma

[Dirk Thierbach]

[Claim: The element "gand" is foreign to modern German]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Seymour C. Moore
What about the surname "Gander"?

"Ganter" is also the [German] name of the male goose

Gander is an archaic(?) English word for male goose.

Then it looks like it is the English equivalent to German "Ganter". In
any case, "Gander" is not modern German :-) (And the original germanic
root is still *gans, not anything with "gand".)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Hey, segue into talking about swans, and we can link up with another
ongoing thread!

My dictionary also lists Old Irish /geis/ "swan" as one of the related
words, so you're not the first one with that idea. :-)

- Dirk

[JJ]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Seymour C. Moore
What about the surname "Gander"?

I haven't heard this name before.<snip>
"Ganter" is also the name of the male goose (and that
meaning is possibly connected to the surname). However, it derives
from the element "gans", not "gand".Gander is an archaic(?) English word for male goose. I've not encountered it

as a surname, but I don't think it would be impossible.

There was Donald Duck's uncle, Gladstone P. Gander ;o)

[Peter Bruells]

Post by JJ

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Seymour C. Moore
What about the surname "Gander"?

I haven't heard this name before.<snip>
"Ganter" is also the name of the male goose (and that
meaning is possibly connected to the surname). However, it derives
from the element "gans", not "gand".Gander is an archaic(?) English word for male goose. I've not encountered it

as a surname, but I don't think it would be impossible.

There was Donald Duck's uncle, Gladstone P. Gander ;o)

Cousin.

[Dan Clore]

Post by Paul Ciszek
In another newsgroup, a native speaker of Italian informed me that the
Italian name "Gandolfo" is Germanic in origin. That's not quite the same
thing as saying that it is definately derived from the Eddic "Gandalf",
but I was wondering if anyone here could provide any further connection.
(She said that according to one of those what-does-your-name-mean books,
"Gandolfo" means "wolf" or "warrior", not "magical elf". I know that
books of that type tend to be very inacurate, so I still hold out some
hope that the authors of the book had no idea what they were talking
about.)

Incidentally, a couple of William Morris's fantasy novels (an enormous
influence on Tolkien) have villains named Gandolf.
--
Dan Clore

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