A thought on Aragorn and the Mouth of Sauron

[The Man With No Name]

Admittedly, I haven't read that far in the book yet, but my understanding
is that in the book Aragorn intends to kill the Mouth, but is prevented by
Gandalf's observation that Mouth has 'diplomatic immunity,' etc.

If that's the case, then isn't the difference between movie Aragorn and
book Aragorn not in his chivalric conduct, but in the speed with which
Gandalf was able to remind him of the Mouth's immunity?

[The Man With No Name]

"The Man With No Name" <***@none.com> wrote in message news:41d59aec$0$23531$***@news.optusnet.com.au...
Admittedly, I haven't read that far in the book yet, but my understanding
is that in the book Aragorn intends to kill the Mouth, but is prevented by
Gandalf's observation that Mouth has 'diplomatic immunity,' etc.

If that's the case, then isn't the difference between movie Aragorn and
book Aragorn not in his chivalric conduct, but in the speed with which
Gandalf was able to remind him of the Mouth's immunity?

[Natman]

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 05:32:34 +1100, "The Man With No Name"

Post by The Man With No Name
Admittedly, I haven't read that far in the book yet, but my understanding
is that in the book Aragorn intends to kill the Mouth, but is prevented by
Gandalf's observation that Mouth has 'diplomatic immunity,' etc.
If that's the case, then isn't the difference between movie Aragorn and
book Aragorn not in his chivalric conduct, but in the speed with which
Gandalf was able to remind him of the Mouth's immunity?

" 'Is there anyone in this rout with authority to treat with me?' [the
Mouth of Sauron] asked. 'Or indeed with wit to understand me? Not thou
at least!' he mocked, turning to Aragorn with scorn.

'It needs more to make a king than a piece of elvish glass, or a
rabble such as this. Why, any brigand of the hills can show as good a
following!'

Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's eye and held
it, and for a moment they strove thus; but soon, though Aragorn did
not stir nor move hand to weapon, the other quailed and gave back as
if menaced with a blow. ' I am a herald and ambassador, and may not be
assailed!' he cried.

'Where such laws hold,' said Gandalf, 'it is also the custom for
ambassadors to use less insolence. But no one has threatened you. You
have naught to fear from us, until your errand is done. But unless
your master has come to new wisdom, then with all his servants you
will be in great peril.'"

So Aragorn merely challenged the Mouth to a staredown contest, and did
not actively threaten him in any way.

Great writing. Way too subtle for PJ & Co.

[Jette Goldie]

Post by Natman
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 05:32:34 +1100, "The Man With No Name"

Post by The Man With No Name
Admittedly, I haven't read that far in the book yet, but my understanding
is that in the book Aragorn intends to kill the Mouth, but is prevented by
Gandalf's observation that Mouth has 'diplomatic immunity,' etc.
If that's the case, then isn't the difference between movie Aragorn and
book Aragorn not in his chivalric conduct, but in the speed with which
Gandalf was able to remind him of the Mouth's immunity?

" 'Is there anyone in this rout with authority to treat with me?' [the
Mouth of Sauron] asked. 'Or indeed with wit to understand me? Not thou
at least!' he mocked, turning to Aragorn with scorn.
'It needs more to make a king than a piece of elvish glass, or a
rabble such as this. Why, any brigand of the hills can show as good a
following!'
Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's eye and held
it, and for a moment they strove thus; but soon, though Aragorn did
not stir nor move hand to weapon, the other quailed and gave back as
if menaced with a blow. ' I am a herald and ambassador, and may not be
assailed!' he cried.
'Where such laws hold,' said Gandalf, 'it is also the custom for
ambassadors to use less insolence. But no one has threatened you. You
have naught to fear from us, until your errand is done. But unless
your master has come to new wisdom, then with all his servants you
will be in great peril.'"
So Aragorn merely challenged the Mouth to a staredown contest, and did
not actively threaten him in any way.
Great writing. Way too subtle for PJ & Co.

I dunno, I was rooting for *someone* to top MoS when I read
the book..... my money was on Eomer, cos he wasn't so
tied to Gondorian politeness.

[Morgil]

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:48:52 GMT, "Jette Goldie"

Post by Jette Goldie
I dunno, I was rooting for *someone* to top MoS when I read
the book..... my money was on Eomer, cos he wasn't so
tied to Gondorian politeness.

I gotta say - PJ obviously knows his audience...

Morgil

[Joe]

Post by Jette Goldie
I dunno, I was rooting for *someone* to top MoS when I read
the book..... my money was on Eomer, cos he wasn't so
tied to Gondorian politeness.

Yah, even better one of those "imps" should have stuck a sword up his
gullet. A lot of the movie changes are actually satisfying, like seeing
Grond pound down the gate, Eagles tear a strip off the Nazgul, a Balrog
flying off, er, ahem, then again plenty of the changes were f.i.t.h.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Joe

Post by Jette Goldie
I dunno, I was rooting for *someone* to top MoS when I read
the book..... my money was on Eomer, cos he wasn't so
tied to Gondorian politeness.

Yah, even better one of those "imps" should have stuck a sword up his
gullet. A lot of the movie changes are actually satisfying, like
seeing Grond pound down the gate

Um. Grond happened in the book as well.

Post by Joe
Eagles tear a strip off the Nazgul,
a Balrog flying off, er, ahem, then again plenty of the changes were
f.i.t.h.

Fire in the hole?

[Joe]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Joe

Post by Jette Goldie
I dunno, I was rooting for *someone* to top MoS when I read
the book..... my money was on Eomer, cos he wasn't so
tied to Gondorian politeness.

Yah, even better one of those "imps" should have stuck a sword up his
gullet. A lot of the movie changes are actually satisfying, like
seeing Grond pound down the gate

Um. Grond happened in the book as well.

Oh yeah. Forgot it did that. hehe

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Joe
Eagles tear a strip off the Nazgul,
a Balrog flying off, er, ahem, then again plenty of the changes were
f.i.t.h.

Fire in the hole?

Fucked In The Head

[Michael O'Neill]

Post by Joe

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Joe

Post by Jette Goldie
I dunno, I was rooting for *someone* to top MoS when I read
the book..... my money was on Eomer, cos he wasn't so
tied to Gondorian politeness.

Yah, even better one of those "imps" should have stuck a sword up his
gullet. A lot of the movie changes are actually satisfying, like
seeing Grond pound down the gate

Um. Grond happened in the book as well.

Oh yeah. Forgot it did that. hehe

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Joe
Eagles tear a strip off the Nazgul,
a Balrog flying off, er, ahem, then again plenty of the changes were
f.i.t.h.

Fire in the hole?

Fucked In The Head

Name them. Add to the debate.

M.

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Natman
So Aragorn merely challenged the Mouth to a staredown contest, and did
not actively threaten him in any way.

IMO, there was some telepathy going on and Aragorn made some *real*
threats to MOS. I think his reaction to Aragorn strongly suggests this.
The /Osanwe-kenta/ tells us that all sentient beings have the ability to
communicate this way, just that in Men it is generally weaker due to the
strength of the hroa over the fea. Aragorn, being of Numenorean descent
would likely have more ability to communicate this way than Men of
lesser lineage. MOS is also thought to have been of Black Numenorean
descent.

I think we see this type of communication of thought between Gandalf and
Denethor as well. Denethor, of course was also almost purely Numenorean,
so would also probably be more attuned to this ability.

Post by Natman
Great writing. Way too subtle for PJ & Co.

I absolutely agree with you here. :-)

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Natman
So Aragorn merely challenged the Mouth to a staredown contest, and
did not actively threaten him in any way.

IMO, there was some telepathy going on and Aragorn made some *real*
threats to MOS. I think his reaction to Aragorn strongly suggests this.

<snip further evidence>

I agree. It's an interesting idea, coupled with your other post about
Aragorn going into people's minds (or at least Faramir and Eowyn's) to
bring them back in the Houses of Healing.

Post by Bill O'Meally
I think we see this type of communication of thought between Gandalf
and Denethor as well. Denethor, of course was also almost purely
Numenorean, so would also probably be more attuned to this ability.

This made me think of listing all the staring contests in LotR, in all
of which some of this Osanwe-kenta might be going on. I can think of
four (five if you count the ones in #4 separately).

1) Aragorn-Gandalf in 'The White Rider'

"He [Aragorn] rose and looked long at Gandalf. The others gazed at them
in silence as they stood there facing one another. The grey figure of
the Man, Aragorn son of Arathorn, was tall, and stern as stone, his hand
upon the hilt of his sword; he looked as if some king out of the mists
of the sea had stepped upon the shores of lesser men. Before him stooped
the old figure, white; shining now as if with some light kindled within,
bent, laden with years, but holding a power beyond the strength of
kings."

2) Gandalf-Denethor in 'Minas Tirith'

"He [Denethor] turned his dark eyes on Gandalf, and now Pippin saw a
likeness between the two, and he felt the strain between them, almost as
if he saw a line of smouldering fire, drawn from eye to eye, that might
suddenly burst into flame.
Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did,
more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older. Yet by a sense other
than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the
deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was older, far
older."

3) Aragorn-MoS in 'The Black Gate Opens'

"Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's eye [the Mouth
of Sauron] and held it, and for a moment they strove thus; but soon,
though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to weapon, the other quailed
and gave back as if menaced with a blow."

4) Pippin-Sauron and Pippin-Gandalf in 'The Palantir'

"Then there came a faint glow and stir in the heart of it, and it held
his [Pippin's] eyes, so that now he could not look away. [...] Then he
[Sauron] came. He did not speak so that I could hear words. He just
looked, and I understood."

"Pippin looked up straight into his [Gandalf's] eyes. The wizard held
his gaze for a moment in silence. [...] Say no more! You have taken no
harm. There is no lie in your eyes, as I feared."

I could have sworn there was also something about Faramir looking in
Frodo's eyes and seeing no lie in them, but I couldn't find it. Oh, and
I forgot to include the obvious Osanwe-kenta from the journey home:

5) Gandalf-Celeborn-Galadriel-Elrond (Many Partings)

"If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or
heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures,
carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled
lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to
mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts
went to and fro."

Any other staring situations that anyone can think of. Maybe in 'The
Silmarillion' as well? Glaurung's stare captivating Turin?

Christopher

[Bill O'Meally]

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

<snip>

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Any other staring situations that anyone can think of.

Frodo on Amon Hen where the voice (Gandalf) tells him to take off the
Ring? Of course there is no staring, and Gandalf is leagues away.
However, O-k does state that distance is of no impediment to osanwe.

Also, normal mortals such as Frodo are generally not receptive to
osanwe, but he was at this point in a dire situation. O-k talks about
the issue of *urgency* (i.e., Frodo about to reveal himself to Sauron)
being able to strengthen the effectiveness of the communication.
Gandalf, especially now that he was the White, also now had a level of
*authority* -- also an element that can strengthen osanwe and make it
more effective in communicating in this fashion with a mortal.

One could also say that Frodo was not a normal mortal, or at least was
becoming that way as he grew in strength of character and mind.

Maybe in 'The

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Silmarillion' as well? Glaurung's stare captivating Turin?

Perhaps, but Turin would have to be "open" to the thoughts of Glaurung.
Only Eru could penetrate the mind of the "unwilling". Glaurung would
also have to have some of the strengthening elements in order to use
osanwe on a mortal -- affinity, urgency and/or authority. The only one I
could think of him having would perhaps be authority. But then even
Morgoth could not enter the mind of someone who was closed to him.
That's why he found language to such an effective weapon in
circumventing the unwilling.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Any other staring situations that anyone can think of.

Frodo on Amon Hen where the voice (Gandalf) tells him to take off the
Ring? Of course there is no staring, and Gandalf is leagues away.
However, O-k does state that distance is of no impediment to osanwe.

Maybe also the striving shown here between Gandalf and Sauron. This
reminds me more of the striving we see between Denethor-Gandalf and
Aragorn-MoS. And there is definitely an Eye involved for Sauron's part!

Is there anything in the Osanwe-kenta texts about how it ties in with
the use of the palantiri? Particularly given Sauron's use of it to hold
Pippin's gaze and seemingly mentally interrogate him? [And also the
Denthor quotes below regarding palantiri]

And there are a few more situations where we see mental striving of
thoughts or something like Osanwe:

a) Galadriel with the power in Dol Guldur:

"In this high place you may see the two powers that are opposed one to
another; and ever they strive now in thought..." (Haldir speaking to
Frodo on Cerin Amroth, Lothlorien)

b) The later Gandalf-Denthor confrontation:

"Denethor looked at their faces and nodded his head, as though in sign
that he had read much there before it was spoken. [...] For a moment the
eyes of Denethor glowed again as he faced Gandalf, and Pippin felt once
more the strain between their wills; but now almost it seemed as if
their glances were like blades from eye to eye, flickering as they
fenced. Pippin trembled fearing some dreadful stroke." (The Siege of
Gondor)

c) Denethor striving with Sauron:

"And the Lord Denethor is unlike other men: he sees far. Some say that
as he sits alone in his high chamber in the Tower at night, and bends
his thought this way and that, he can read somewhat of the future; and
that he will at times search even the mind of the Enemy, wrestling with
him." (Minas Tirith)

I am much more impressed with Denethor than I ever have been on any
other readings of LotR. He is a lot more powerful than I realised. Makes
me wonder what he would have been like with the Ring, or in a
confrontation with Aragorn (to whom he is very alike).

<snip>

Christopher

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Is there anything in the Osanwe-kenta texts about how it ties in with
the use of the palantiri? Particularly given Sauron's use of it to
hold Pippin's gaze and seemingly mentally interrogate him? [And also
the Denthor quotes below regarding palantiri]

Unfortunately, O-k does not tie in this process to the Palantiri. It
would seem that, at least as far as using the stones for communication,
it was the same process. Perhaps it was yet another way to "strengthen"
(see my discussion of this earlier in this thread) the process. O-k
states that for incarnates to use osanwe some form of strengthening
needs to occur. Pehaps Feanor discovered a way, through his creating the
Palantiri, of eliminating the need for "urgency", "affinity" or
"authority" -- the three "strengthening" elements. Just a thought.

Technically, Sauron should not be able to read Pippin's mind if he chose
to close it to him. Even Morgoth could not do such things. However, the
default setting of the mind is "open", and it takes a conscious effort
to close it. If Pippin was caught unaware, as he seemed to be, then
Sauron would have free access.

<snip>

[JXStern]

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:44:06 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Any other staring situations that anyone can think of.

Treebeard staring at Merry and Pippin.

Gollum staring at everything and everybody.

The Eye of Sauron staring at everything.

Eowyn staring at Aragorn.

Boromir staring at Frodo just before attacking him.

Frodo staring down all nine Nazgul at the ford.

J.

[AC]

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:44:06 GMT,

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Any other staring situations that anyone can think of. Maybe in 'The
Silmarillion' as well? Glaurung's stare captivating Turin?

Well, the Valar communicated that way.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by JXStern
On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:44:06 GMT,

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Any other staring situations that anyone can think of. Maybe in 'The
Silmarillion' as well? Glaurung's stare captivating Turin?

Well, the Valar communicated that way.

Any details? Is this in Osanwe-kenta?

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by JXStern
On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:44:06 GMT,

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Any other staring situations that anyone can think of. Maybe in 'The
Silmarillion' as well? Glaurung's stare captivating Turin?

Well, the Valar communicated that way.

Any details? Is this in Osanwe-kenta?

It can be surmised from O-k, although it doesn't come out and say it
AFAIK. Language is described as something used by incarnates because of
the barriers to osanwe imposed by having a hroa. I take that to mean
that the Ainur tend not to use language in their normal discourse.
Osanwe is a more exact and effective form of communication: it is the
direct transmission of thought. Why wouldn't spiritual beings naturally
prefer it?

[Stan Brown]

Post by Bill O'Meally
It can be surmised from O-k, although it doesn't come out and say it
AFAIK. Language is described as something used by incarnates because of
the barriers to osanwe imposed by having a hroa. I take that to mean
that the Ainur tend not to use language in their normal discourse.

But they did have a language, because we're told somewhere -- I wish
I could remember where -- that their "names" as recorded in the
histories were the nicknames given them by the Elves, and their own
names in the Valinorean (or Valarin) language were different.

Also the herbmaster of the Houses of Healing starts to give the name
of athelas in "the Valinorean" before Aragorn stops him. Did he mean
Quenya by that? I don't think so, because if he meant Quenya it would
have been more natural to say "High Elvish" or something similar.

(On the other hand, how would the herbmaster have learned anything of
the language of the Valar?)

[TT Arvind]

Wes ðu Stan Brown hal!

Post by Stan Brown
But they did have a language, because we're told somewhere -- I wish
I could remember where -- that their "names" as recorded in the
histories were the nicknames given them by the Elves, and their own
names in the Valinorean (or Valarin) language were different.

There is a note on the "Language of the Valar" appended to the /Quendi
and Eldar/ essay - is that what you were thinking of?

Post by Stan Brown
Also the herbmaster of the Houses of Healing starts to give the name
of athelas in "the Valinorean" before Aragorn stops him. Did he mean
Quenya by that? I don't think so, because if he meant Quenya it would
have been more natural to say "High Elvish" or something similar.

Judging by Aragorn's response, I think he meant Quenya.

Thereupon the herb-master entered. "Your lordship asked for kingsfoil,
as the rustics name it," he said; "or athelas in the noble tongue, or to
those who know somewhat of the Valinorean..."

"I do so," said Aragorn, "and I care not whether you say now asëa
aranion or kingsfoil, so long as you have some."

'Asëa aranion' is Quenya, and it seems like Aragorn is interrupting to
show he knows the name which the herbmaster is going to relate.

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Stan Brown
But they did have a language, because we're told somewhere -- I wish
I could remember where -- that their "names" as recorded in the
histories were the nicknames given them by the Elves, and their own
names in the Valinorean (or Valarin) language were different.

Which brings up the question, is a language needed even to share
thoughts? I've been told that we think in our language, which doesn't
seem entirely correct to me. Is that saying that people like Helen
Keller who don't have language can't think?

Perhaps they developed and used language for the purpose of
communicating around the Eruhini, although the Children soon developed
their own. I could just see the Valar and a group of Eldar gathered in
Manwe's halls. The Valar are all staring at each other, all of a sudden
they all crack up after sharing a joke. The Eldar just look at each
other and shrug. :-)

Post by Stan Brown
Also the herbmaster of the Houses of Healing starts to give the name
of athelas in "the Valinorean" before Aragorn stops him. Did he mean
Quenya by that? I don't think so, because if he meant Quenya it would
have been more natural to say "High Elvish" or something similar.
(On the other hand, how would the herbmaster have learned anything of
the language of the Valar?)

It doesn't seem likely that he would. I think he may have just been
being pretentious.

[Jim Deutch]

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 19:52:48 GMT, "Bill O'Meally"

Post by Bill O'Meally
Which brings up the question, is a language needed even to share
thoughts? I've been told that we think in our language, which doesn't
seem entirely correct to me. Is that saying that people like Helen
Keller who don't have language can't think?

Deaf people think in ASL: their "internal dialog" involves imaginary
movements of the hands, not imaginary sounds of speech. That said,
this is of course not the only way to think. Mathematicians and
artists commonly think in pictures. Composers may think in sounds,
though I expect that hand movements (as at the piano) would be more
common. IQ tests are generally an attempt to test thinking processes
that are not language-dependent (not always successful, IMHO).

Post by Bill O'Meally
Perhaps they developed and used language for the purpose of
communicating around the Eruhini, although the Children soon developed
their own. I could just see the Valar and a group of Eldar gathered in
Manwe's halls. The Valar are all staring at each other, all of a sudden
they all crack up after sharing a joke. The Eldar just look at each
other and shrug. :-)

I suspect the Valar developed a spoken language long before the
Eruhini arose. After all, they (at least some of them) used humanlike
bodies right from the start. It was all part of their love for and
imitation of the Eruhini, which came from the Music, long before any
such were incarnated within Arda.

Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)

[s***@nomail.com]

In rec.arts.books.tolkien Stan Brown <***@fastmail.fm> wrote:
: "Bill O'Meally" wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
:>It can be surmised from O-k, although it doesn't come out and say it
:>AFAIK. Language is described as something used by incarnates because of
:>the barriers to osanwe imposed by having a hroa. I take that to mean
:>that the Ainur tend not to use language in their normal discourse.

: But they did have a language, because we're told somewhere -- I wish
: I could remember where -- that their "names" as recorded in the
: histories were the nicknames given them by the Elves, and their own
: names in the Valinorean (or Valarin) language were different.

Valinorean and Valarin are not synonyms. Valinorean refers
to the languages of the Elves of Valinor. Valarin is the
language of the Valar.

'Quendi and Eldar' in "The War of the Jewels" discusses
Valarin. It has this interesting comment:
"'Even if we had no knowledge of it [Valarin],' he [Pengolodh] says,
'we could not reasonably doubt that the Valar had a lambe of
their own. We know that all members of their oder were incarnated
by their own desire, and that most of them chose to take forms like
those of the Children of Eru, as they name us. In such forms
they would take on all the characters of the Incarnates that
were due to the co-operation of hroa with indwelling fea, for
otherwise the assumption of these forms would have been needless,
and they arrayed themselves in this manner long before they had
any cause to appear before us visibly. Since, then, the making
of a lambe is the chief character of an Incarnate, the Valar, having
arrayed them in this manner, would inevitably during their long
sojourn in Arda have made a lambe for themselves.'"

This suggest the Ainur did use language in their normal discourse.

: Also the herbmaster of the Houses of Healing starts to give the name
: of athelas in "the Valinorean" before Aragorn stops him. Did he mean
: Quenya by that? I don't think so, because if he meant Quenya it would
: have been more natural to say "High Elvish" or something similar.

He meant Quenya.

Stephen

[Bill O'Meally]

***@nomail.com wrote:

We know that all members of their oder were incarnated

Post by s***@nomail.com
by their own desire,

Is that to say that if they *didn't* take physical form they wouldn't
smell?

;-)

[Stan Brown]

Post by s***@nomail.com
We know that all members of their oder were incarnated

Post by s***@nomail.com
by their own desire,

Is that to say that if they *didn't* take physical form they wouldn't
smell?

I think it has something to do with the Maia wo's in charge of a
river in Poland (or Germany; I have't a map handy).

[Odysseus]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by s***@nomail.com
We know that all members of their oder were incarnated

Post by s***@nomail.com
by their own desire,

Is that to say that if they *didn't* take physical form they wouldn't
smell?

I think it has something to do with the Maia wo's in charge of a
river in Poland (or Germany; I have't a map handy).

It forms part of the border, doesn't it?

[Stan Brown]

Post by s***@nomail.com
'Quendi and Eldar' in "The War of the Jewels" discusses
"'Even if we had no knowledge of it [Valarin],' he [Pengolodh] says,
'we could not reasonably doubt that the Valar had a lambe of
their own.

Thanks; that's probably the passage I was thinking of.

Thanks also to the others who responded, especially for the clear
distinction between Valarin and Valinorean, the latter being the
language of the Elves of Valinor ( = Quenya, I suppose).

[pawn, loathesome, credible]

Post by Bill O'Meally
It can be surmised from O-k, although it doesn't come out and say it
AFAIK. Language is described as something used by incarnates because of
the barriers to osanwe imposed by having a hroa. I take that to mean
that the Ainur tend not to use language in their normal discourse.
Osanwe is a more exact and effective form of communication: it is the
direct transmission of thought. Why wouldn't spiritual beings naturally
prefer it?

So, ummm, did they use emoticons?

[Natman]

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 20:09:42 GMT, "Bill O'Meally"

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Natman
So Aragorn merely challenged the Mouth to a staredown contest, and did
not actively threaten him in any way.

IMO, there was some telepathy going on and Aragorn made some *real*
threats to MOS. I think his reaction to Aragorn strongly suggests this.
The /Osanwe-kenta/ tells us that all sentient beings have the ability to
communicate this way, just that in Men it is generally weaker due to the
strength of the hroa over the fea. Aragorn, being of Numenorean descent
would likely have more ability to communicate this way than Men of
lesser lineage. MOS is also thought to have been of Black Numenorean
descent.
I think we see this type of communication of thought between Gandalf and
Denethor as well. Denethor, of course was also almost purely Numenorean,
so would also probably be more attuned to this ability.

I agree. Aragorn was establishing his will and caused the MOS to quail
without any *active* threat.

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Natman
Great writing. Way too subtle for PJ & Co.

I absolutely agree with you here. :-)
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--

[Taemon]

Post by Natman
Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's
eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus; but
soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to
weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced
with a blow. ' I am a herald and ambassador, and may not
be assailed!' he cried.

You know - I hate this piece. It's one of those "history is told
by the victor"-passages I truly hate about the book. The
Adversary is always ugly and craven, while the hero is kingly and
brave. Oh, and in a minority! Give me Frodo and Sam over Aragorn
every day.

T.

[Natman]

Post by Taemon

Post by Natman
Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's
eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus; but
soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to
weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced
with a blow. ' I am a herald and ambassador, and may not
be assailed!' he cried.

You know - I hate this piece. It's one of those "history is told
by the victor"-passages I truly hate about the book. The
Adversary is always ugly and craven, while the hero is kingly and
brave. Oh, and in a minority! Give me Frodo and Sam over Aragorn
every day.
T.

Sauron - misunderstood victim of bad press.

[Smeghead]

Post by Taemon

Post by Natman
Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's
eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus; but
soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to
weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced
with a blow. ' I am a herald and ambassador, and may not
be assailed!' he cried.

You know - I hate this piece. It's one of those "history is told
by the victor"-passages I truly hate about the book. The
Adversary is always ugly and craven, while the hero is kingly and
brave. Oh, and in a minority! Give me Frodo and Sam over Aragorn
every day.
T.

Except in this case the adversary IS ugly and craven. Thicky.

[Morgil]

Post by Smeghead

Post by Taemon
You know - I hate this piece. It's one of those "history is told
by the victor"-passages I truly hate about the book. The
Adversary is always ugly and craven, while the hero is kingly and
brave. Oh, and in a minority! Give me Frodo and Sam over Aragorn
every day.

Except in this case the adversary IS ugly and craven. Thicky.

For the record, there doesn't seem to be any mention in
Tolkien's text about MoS being particularily ugly or
anything like that...

Morgil

[Raven]

Post by Morgil
For the record, there doesn't seem to be any mention in
Tolkien's text about MoS being particularily ugly or
anything like that...

His *horse*, OTOH...

Korppi.

[AC]

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:04:51 +0100,

Post by Taemon

Post by Natman
Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's
eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus; but
soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to
weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced
with a blow. ' I am a herald and ambassador, and may not
be assailed!' he cried.

You know - I hate this piece. It's one of those "history is told
by the victor"-passages I truly hate about the book. The
Adversary is always ugly and craven, while the hero is kingly and
brave. Oh, and in a minority! Give me Frodo and Sam over Aragorn
every day.

Saruman wasn't ugly and craven when we meet up with in Orthanc. Sauron, in
his form of Annatar, Lord of Gifts during the Second Age must have looked
and acted a swell chap.

[Taemon]

Post by AC
On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:04:51 +0100,

Post by Taemon

Post by Natman
Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's
eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus;
but soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to
weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced
with a blow. ' I am a herald and ambassador, and may
not be assailed!' he cried.

You know - I hate this piece. It's one of those
"history is told by the victor"-passages I truly hate
about the book. The Adversary is always ugly and
craven, while the hero is kingly and brave. Oh, and in
a minority! Give me Frodo and Sam over Aragorn every
day.

Saruman wasn't ugly and craven when we meet up with in
Orthanc. Sauron, in his form of Annatar, Lord of Gifts
during the Second Age must have looked and acted a swell
chap.

Yyyyeees. So... there are exceptions. Jolly!

T.

[Larry Swain]

Post by Taemon

Post by AC
On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:04:51 +0100,

Post by Taemon

Post by Natman
Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's
eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus;
but soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to
weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced
with a blow. ' I am a herald and ambassador, and may
not be assailed!' he cried.

You know - I hate this piece. It's one of those
"history is told by the victor"-passages I truly hate
about the book. The Adversary is always ugly and
craven, while the hero is kingly and brave. Oh, and in
a minority! Give me Frodo and Sam over Aragorn every
day.

Saruman wasn't ugly and craven when we meet up with in
Orthanc. Sauron, in his form of Annatar, Lord of Gifts
during the Second Age must have looked and acted a swell
chap.

Yyyyeees. So... there are exceptions. Jolly!

And Ghan buri Ghan, a good guy, ain't exactly handsome.

[AC]

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:30:27 +0100,

Post by Taemon

Post by AC
On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:04:51 +0100,

Post by Taemon

Post by Natman
Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's
eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus;
but soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to
weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced
with a blow. ' I am a herald and ambassador, and may
not be assailed!' he cried.

You know - I hate this piece. It's one of those
"history is told by the victor"-passages I truly hate
about the book. The Adversary is always ugly and
craven, while the hero is kingly and brave. Oh, and in
a minority! Give me Frodo and Sam over Aragorn every
day.

Saruman wasn't ugly and craven when we meet up with in
Orthanc. Sauron, in his form of Annatar, Lord of Gifts
during the Second Age must have looked and acted a swell
chap.

Yyyyeees. So... there are exceptions. Jolly!

More than simple exceptions. I gather than Melkor could, before he expended
so much of his strength, look the trusting part.

I think it stands that not all evil characters in Tolkien's mythos were
nasty looking. The flip-side is that not all good characters are fine
looking (the Hobbits' first meeting with Strider and Ghan-buri-ghan are good
examples). At what point does the number of exceptions simply overthrow an
alleged rule?

[Taemon]

Post by AC
On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:30:27 +0100,

Post by Taemon

Post by AC

Post by Taemon
You know - I hate this piece. It's one of those
"history is told by the victor"-passages I truly
hate about the book. The Adversary is always ugly
and craven, while the hero is kingly and brave. Oh,
and in a minority! Give me Frodo and Sam over
Aragorn every day.

Saruman wasn't ugly and craven when we meet up with in
Orthanc. Sauron, in his form of Annatar, Lord of
Gifts during the Second Age must have looked and
acted a swell chap.

Yyyyeees. So... there are exceptions. Jolly!

I think it stands that not all evil characters in
Tolkien's mythos were nasty looking. The flip-side is
that not all good characters are fine looking (the
Hobbits' first meeting with Strider and Ghan-buri-ghan
are good examples). At what point does the number of
exceptions simply overthrow an alleged rule?

I don't know. I think those billions of orcs are a bit hard to
top.

Remember that scene in which Aragorn is laughed away by the orcs
in Helm's Deep? I'm afraid I sort of enjoyed that.

T.

[Stan Brown]

Post by The Man With No Name
Admittedly, I haven't read that far in the book yet, but my understanding

We heard you the first time.

[JXStern]

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 05:32:34 +1100, "The Man With No Name"

Post by The Man With No Name
Admittedly, I haven't read that far in the book yet, but my understanding
is that in the book Aragorn intends to kill the Mouth, but is prevented by
Gandalf's observation that Mouth has 'diplomatic immunity,' etc.

No, no, no. MoS flinches in their confrontation, but that's just cuz
he was after all just an evil sissy, and just being that near to
Aragorn (et al) spooked him. So to speak.

Post by The Man With No Name
If that's the case, then isn't the difference between movie Aragorn and
book Aragorn not in his chivalric conduct, but in the speed with which
Gandalf was able to remind him of the Mouth's immunity?

In the director's comments PJ makes a case for why he allowed himself
the cinematic shortcut (sic) of truncating MoS, that there was
uncertainty by Aragorn and the rest of Frodo's true state, and that a
movie viewer might not realize this, what with all the intercutting
and omniscient camera views. After chopping head, Aragorn shouts out,
"I do not believe him!" clarifying the situation somewhat. Yeah, OK,
that's a rationale, and the scene was mildly satisfying, but I think
it was well cut from the TR as it stands, it needed further
development if it was going to be used.

J.

[Michael O'Neill]

Post by The Man With No Name
Admittedly, I haven't read that far
in the book yet, but my understanding
is that in the book Aragorn intends
to kill the Mouth, but is prevented by
Gandalf's observation that Mouth has 'diplomatic immunity,' etc.

<snip>

The Mouth considered that Aragorn had "assailed" him. We are not told how
Aragorn allegedly had done this, nor is is proven beyond a staring match
in the text, but if some kind of assault *did* occur, then some form of
mental assault may be assumed.

In that case, Gandalf is at the very least bending the truth when he
denies the claim of the Mouth, and Aragorn is being undiplomatic,
although with provocation.

I don't see this stretching to "intends to kill the Mouth" at that time,
although lethal intent is a prerequisite for war.

We may assume that Aragorn, the pinnacle of Numenorean manhood, would not
hold a possible Black Numenorean in high regard and would seek to kill
him in battle given a chance.

M.

[Stan Brown]

Post by The Man With No Name
Admittedly, I haven't read that far in the book yet, but my understanding
is that in the book Aragorn intends to kill the Mouth, but is prevented by
Gandalf's observation that Mouth has 'diplomatic immunity,' etc.

Huh?

I don't understand how you could get that "understanding". The Mouth
appears only in one short scene in Tolkien's work(*), so if you've
read far enough to learn of the Mouth's existence then one or two
pages at the most will tell you how things turn out.

Briefly, the Moth _claims) diplomatic immunity (not in those words)
but Gandalf tells him he's waived it by not behaving like a diplomat.
Aragorn didn't attempt to kill him before the start of the battle.

(*) Maybe it's different in Jackson's work.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Stan Brown <***@fastmail.fm> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Stan Brown
Briefly, the Moth _claims) diplomatic immunity (not in those words)
but Gandalf tells him he's waived it by not behaving like a diplomat.
Aragorn didn't attempt to kill him before the start of the battle.
(*) Maybe it's different in Jackson's work.

Would it confuse you to know that there _is_ a Moth in Jackson's work.

<visions of Aragorn running around the battlefield trying to behead that
annoying moth>

:-)

[Stan Brown]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Stan Brown
Briefly, the Moth _claims) diplomatic immunity (not in those words)

^^^ OOPS!(1)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Stan Brown
but Gandalf tells him he's waived it by not behaving like a diplomat.
Aragorn didn't attempt to kill him before the start of the battle.
(*) Maybe it's different in Jackson's work.

Would it confuse you to know that there _is_ a Moth in Jackson's work.
:-)

I do remember the moth that visited Gandalf on the top of Orthanc in
part 1 of Jackson's version, though I never understood why it was
there in the story. Was there another moth later?

I'm trying to figure out what the Moth of Sauron would look like, and
whether Shelob could catch it in her web.

(1) Once again, I wish for a spell checker that will not just make
sure a group of letters form an existing word but that they form the
word I wish to use.

[AC]

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 12:34:55 -0500,

Post by Stan Brown
(1) Once again, I wish for a spell checker that will not just make
sure a group of letters form an existing word but that they form the
word I wish to use.

They're called grammar checkers, and take my word for it, you'd be turning
it off after about five minutes.

[Stan Brown]

Post by AC
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 12:34:55 -0500,

Post by Stan Brown
(1) Once again, I wish for a spell checker that will not just make
sure a group of letters form an existing word but that they form the
word I wish to use.

They're called grammar checkers, and take my word for it, you'd be turning
it off after about five minutes.

I know what a grammar checker is, and you're right that the ones I've
seen are worse than useless.

But I doubt there's a grammar checker in the world that would know
you meant "mouth" when you typed "moth". They're both concrete nouns.

[the softrat]

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:01:40 -0500, Stan Brown

Post by Stan Brown
But I doubt there's a grammar checker in the world that would know
you meant "mouth" when you typed "moth". They're both concrete nouns.

No wonder you have problems if you have concrete moths.

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
Turn on, tune in, drop out. Do not attempt while in an aeroplane.

[Geirroeth]

Post by the softrat
On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:01:40 -0500, Stan Brown

Post by Stan Brown
But I doubt there's a grammar checker in the world that would know
you meant "mouth" when you typed "moth". They're both concrete nouns.

No wonder you have problems if you have concrete moths.

After Aragorn killed the Moth of Sauron, he next went after the
Turgid Eels...

Steve Morrison

[Anthony Bryant]

Post by Stan Brown
But I doubt there's a grammar checker in the world that would know
you meant "mouth" when you typed "moth". They're both concrete nouns.

Yeah, but "Moth of Sauron" would explain why the Nazguls' robes all look so
nasty....


Tony

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Stan Brown
Briefly, the Moth _claims) diplomatic immunity (not in those words)

^^^ OOPS!(1)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Stan Brown
but Gandalf tells him he's waived it by not behaving like a
diplomat. Aragorn didn't attempt to kill him before the start of
the battle.
(*) Maybe it's different in Jackson's work.

Would it confuse you to know that there _is_ a Moth in Jackson's work.
:-)

I do remember the moth that visited Gandalf on the top of Orthanc in
part 1 of Jackson's version, though I never understood why it was
there in the story. Was there another moth later?

Yes. It is in the RotK film. Performs a similar function of leaving
people scratching their heads and going: WTF?

Post by Stan Brown
I'm trying to figure out what the Moth of Sauron would look like, and
whether Shelob could catch it in her web.

:-)

Gandalf's Moth is quite small, but seems to possibly be able to turn
into an Eagle, so maybe Shelob might get more than she bargained for.

Post by Stan Brown
(1) Once again, I wish for a spell checker that will not just make
sure a group of letters form an existing word but that they form the
word I wish to use.

No offence, but it's called your brain! Even though brains are most
certainly not infallible, if you give one enough training, nourishment
and rest, it will probably spot the mistakes when reading a piece of
text. :-)

[I wouldn't normally have made the initial comment, but the opportunity
was there for a joke. Just irresistable!]

Christopher

[Stan Brown]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
No offence, but it's called your brain! Even though brains are most
certainly not infallible, if you give one enough training, nourishment
and rest, it will probably spot the mistakes when reading a piece of
text. :-)

You're right in principle. But I find it immensely difficult in
practice to proofread stuff on screen -- I have enough trouble
_reading_ on screen that my brain tends to see what it expects to
see, and I hate to think about the waste of paper if I printed
everything before sending it.

This way, at least I provide a source of innocent merriment for folks
in the newsgroups. :-)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[I wouldn't normally have made the initial comment, but the opportunity
was there for a joke. Just irresistable!]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Oh, the irony! :-)

[Michele Fry]

Post by Stan Brown
You're right in principle. But I find it immensely difficult in
practice to proofread stuff on screen -- I have enough trouble
_reading_ on screen that my brain tends to see what it expects to
see, and I hate to think about the waste of paper if I printed
everything before sending it.

Actually you're in the majority there. My "day job" is as a proof-
reader/editor and I proof-read hundreds of commercial reports each week.
99.9% of people regularly see what they expect - both on screen and on a
printed page. It's the way the human brain seems to work - to make sense
of things even when they look weird. A little while ago there was an
email circulating on the Net that was supposed to prove how unnecessary
proper spelling is, by showing you that you could make sense of a
sentence so long as the first and last letter of every word was in place
(most vowels were missing) and not much else. And it's true. One could
read it and make sense of it, because we read what we expect to see...
People who spot *every* single typo. are very rare (and occasionally
annoyingly), I'm one - I'm not saying I always spot *my* typos, but I do
always spot other people's - they jump off the page/screen at me as if
written in Technicolor letters. If people send me articles they've
written, I always email them back a proofed copy (with apologies and
explanations for my behaviour !). Friends who are writers, are now
starting to send me their stuff to proof before it goes away for
publication.

Post by Stan Brown
This way, at least I provide a source of innocent merriment for folks
in the newsgroups. :-)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[I wouldn't normally have made the initial comment, but the opportunity
was there for a joke. Just irresistable!]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Oh, the irony! :-)

Indeed !! Apparently Christopher didn't have *his* spell checker
running...

Michele
==
"A book is not only a friend, it makes friends for you. When you have
possessed a book with mind and spirit, you are enriched. But when you
pass it on you are enriched threefold."
- Henry Miller 'The Books In My Life' (1969)
==
Now reading: Spindle's End - Robin McKinley
==
Commit random acts of literacy! Read & Release at Bookcrossing:
http://www.bookcrossing.com/friend/Sass-80

[R. Dan Henry]

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 06:54:37 +0000, Michele Fry

Post by Michele Fry
I'm one - I'm not saying I always spot *my* typos, but I do
always spot other people's

It is a thousand times harder to proofread your own work than someone
else's work. Although if you've got time to set it aside for a couple
of months, that helps. The old "read it backwards" trick can help,
too, although you'll miss some context-dependent stuff that way.

R. Dan Henry
***@inreach.com

[Christopher Kreuzer]

<snip>

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[I wouldn't normally have made the initial comment, but the
opportunity was there for a joke. Just irresistable!]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Oh, the irony! :-)

Er, that was a test/joke! (of course).
<wondering if anyone will believe me..>

:-)

[Michele Fry]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Er, that was a test/joke! (of course).
<wondering if anyone will believe me..>
:-)

Nice try... !

Michele
==
"A book is not only a friend, it makes friends for you. When you have
possessed a book with mind and spirit, you are enriched. But when you
pass it on you are enriched threefold."
- Henry Miller 'The Books In My Life' (1969)
==
Now reading: Spindle's End - Robin McKinley
==
Commit random acts of literacy! Read & Release at Bookcrossing:
http://www.bookcrossing.com/friend/Sass-80

[Stan Brown]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[I wouldn't normally have made the initial comment, but the
opportunity was there for a joke. Just irresistable!]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Oh, the irony! :-)

Er, that was a test/joke! (of course).
<wondering if anyone will believe me..>

Ring? What Ring? Oh, that Ring. I was just holding it for you.