What does Westron *sound* like?

[FigNewton]

Howdy. Used to be a regular here, dropped out for a while, browsed on
occasion, back again. :)

Here's a bizarre question: What does Westron *sound* like? Do we have
an idea? If Aragorn would introduce himself as "Strider" to someone
who spoke English (yes, I know that can't happen), what collection of
syllables would the English-speaking person hear? Would Frodo's name
sound like "Froda", and "Bilbo" like "Bilba"? What about names like
"Ferny" and "Maggot" - those are essentially Englicized versions of
their Westron counterparts. Obviously, the name isn't "Ferny," but
whatever the Westron word for "ferny" is. What would that sound like
for you or me?

I'm primarily interested in the word "Strider" for reasons too strange
to contemplate, but I would appreciate any replies on the subject. :)

FigNewton

[cassandras morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges]

Post by FigNewton
Howdy. Used to be a regular here, dropped out for a while, browsed on
occasion, back again. :)
Here's a bizarre question: What does Westron *sound* like? Do we have

theres some westron words at the end of appendix f

from that and comments about numenorean
and the form of numenorean names
it was perhaps like afro-asiatic with the phonemes of english and german

[Aris Katsaris]

Post by FigNewton
Howdy. Used to be a regular here, dropped out for a while, browsed on
occasion, back again. :)
Here's a bizarre question: What does Westron *sound* like? Do we have
an idea? If Aragorn would introduce himself as "Strider" to someone
who spoke English (yes, I know that can't happen), what collection of
syllables would the English-speaking person hear?

You have a convoluted way of asking what his Westron name is... :-)

Only true answer is that we don't know the Westron translation of
Strider...

Post by FigNewton
Would Frodo's name sound like "Froda"?

We are not entirely sure about Frodo's name -- in one of Tolkien's drafts for
the appendix he has his original Westron name be "Maura", but he removed
this tidbit from the published version of the appendices, so we can't know
if he changed his mind on this front or not. But "Maura" is our best guess
available.

Post by FigNewton
, and "Bilbo" like "Bilba"?

Yeah, Bilbo's original Westron name is "Bilba"

Go here: http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/westron.htm

Aris Katsaris

[Stuart Chapman]

Post by Aris Katsaris
We are not entirely sure about Frodo's name -- in one of Tolkien's drafts for
the appendix he has his original Westron name be "Maura", but he removed
this tidbit from the published version of the appendices, so we can't know
if he changed his mind on this front or not. But "Maura" is our best guess
available.

Post by FigNewton
, and "Bilbo" like "Bilba"?

I don't understand how names like that can be translated....

Isn't it like saying that 'Chang' is Chinese for 'Smith'??

Or is there a way for the sounds of Westron to be translated to their
English equivalent sound??

Stupot

[Aris Katsaris]

Post by Stuart Chapman

Post by Aris Katsaris
We are not entirely sure about Frodo's name -- in one of Tolkien's drafts

for

Post by Aris Katsaris
the appendix he has his original Westron name be "Maura", but he removed
this tidbit from the published version of the appendices, so we can't know
if he changed his mind on this front or not. But "Maura" is our best guess
available.

Post by FigNewton
, and "Bilbo" like "Bilba"?

I don't understand how names like that can be translated....
Isn't it like saying that 'Chang' is Chinese for 'Smith'??

Perhaps. But Tolkien's intent was to have the Hobbits be
"familiar" to us. So we have some familiar names like
Bill and Sam and Rose in the vicinity of the Shire

"Merry", with the connotations of joyfulness, can't have
actually been "Merry" in the original Westron, it was Kali,
short for Kalimac.

And Samwise son of Hamfast, is Banazir son of Ranugad.

Post by Stuart Chapman
Or is there a way for the sounds of Westron to be translated to their
English equivalent sound??

Doesn't have anything to do with sounds, it has to do with Westron
throughout the text being translated to English, and even the names
with specific connotations taking on equivalent English connotations...

Aris Katsaris

[Stuart Chapman]

Post by Aris Katsaris

Post by Stuart Chapman

Post by Aris Katsaris
We are not entirely sure about Frodo's name -- in one of Tolkien's drafts

for

Post by Aris Katsaris
the appendix he has his original Westron name be "Maura", but he removed
this tidbit from the published version of the appendices, so we can't know
if he changed his mind on this front or not. But "Maura" is our best guess
available.

Post by FigNewton
, and "Bilbo" like "Bilba"?

I don't understand how names like that can be translated....
Isn't it like saying that 'Chang' is Chinese for 'Smith'??

Perhaps. But Tolkien's intent was to have the Hobbits be
"familiar" to us. So we have some familiar names like
Bill and Sam and Rose in the vicinity of the Shire
"Merry", with the connotations of joyfulness, can't have
actually been "Merry" in the original Westron, it was Kali,
short for Kalimac.
And Samwise son of Hamfast, is Banazir son of Ranugad.

Yes...but these are names which have a <meaning>. (I understand that Banazir
meant something like dim-witted (which is a bit unfair)).

To illustrate my point, how would <Stuart> be translated into Westron. Or,
how can Bilba in Westron <mean> Bilbo in English.

I understand that sound in themselves are meaningless - and for this reason
I can't think of any reason why <Bilba> would need to be translated at all.
What is gained by translating it into <Bilbo> in English? This is why we
don't try and translate the Chinese <Chang> into an English word, but the
French <Monsieur Blanc> could be translated into <Mister White>.

Ideas??? Stupot

PS If <Chang>, or any other Chinese name does have an English meaning, I'd
be fascinated to know.

[Aris Katsaris]

Post by Stuart Chapman
Yes...but these are names which have a <meaning>. (I understand that Banazir
meant something like dim-witted (which is a bit unfair)).
To illustrate my point, how would <Stuart> be translated into Westron. Or,
how can Bilba in Westron <mean> Bilbo in English.

Because "-a" is a masculine ending in Westron but tends to be a feminine ending
in English, while "-o" tends to be a masculine ending in English. :-)

Post by Stuart Chapman
I understand that sound in themselves are meaningless - and for this reason
I can't think of any reason why <Bilba> would need to be translated at all.
What is gained by translating it into <Bilbo> in English?

You get a feel of the name that's slightly more English and "natural"-sounding
than Bilba would have been.

Aris Katsaris

[FigNewton]

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 07:28:27 GMT, "Stuart Chapman"

Post by Stuart Chapman
Or is there a way for the sounds of Westron to be translated to their
English equivalent sound??

That's actually what I was trying to ask. I think. :) Thanks to Aris
and Raven for the interesting link, btw. But what I was trying, and
evidently failing, to ask is how the Westron words would sound to US.
Phonetically transliterated. Merry's name, for example, would sound
like "Kali," according to that very interesting site. So what would
the Westron equivalent of "Strider" sound like? I *know* the word
Strider is there to tell us what the Westron word *meant*. But what
would the Westron word sound link to our ears?

Probably know way to tell, but I'd love to find out. :)

[Aris Katsaris]

Post by FigNewton
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 07:28:27 GMT, "Stuart Chapman"

Post by Stuart Chapman
Or is there a way for the sounds of Westron to be translated to their
English equivalent sound??

That's actually what I was trying to ask. I think. :)

I don't think that's what you were asking -- Stuart seems to be talking
about correspondance of sounds. Such a thing is meaningless. Sounds
don't correspond to other sounds. Sounds are heard.

Words and names correspond to other words and names.

Post by FigNewton
Thanks to Aris
and Raven for the interesting link, btw. But what I was trying, and
evidently failing, to ask is how the Westron words would sound to US.

In short "What were the original Westron words and names? ".

*g* I still don't see why you made it so convoluted a question, when
it's actually pretty simple..

Post by FigNewton
Phonetically transliterated. Merry's name, for example, would sound
like "Kali," according to that very interesting site. So what would
the Westron equivalent of "Strider" sound like? I *know* the word
Strider is there to tell us what the Westron word *meant*. But what
would the Westron word sound link to our ears?

In short "what was the original Westron word?"

We know that you weren't asking for the meaning of the Westron
word, but for the word itself.

Aris Katsaris

[Raven]

Post by FigNewton
Here's a bizarre question: What does Westron *sound* like? Do we have
an idea?

There is precious little material on Westron, since Tolkien wrote the
LotR as if it were a translation of an original Westron manuscript, hence
all the original Westron is represented by English. The web site
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf has some material.

Kruk.

[AC]

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:55:44 +0100,

Post by Raven

Post by FigNewton
Here's a bizarre question: What does Westron *sound* like? Do we have
an idea?

There is precious little material on Westron, since Tolkien wrote the
LotR as if it were a translation of an original Westron manuscript, hence
all the original Westron is represented by English. The web site
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf has some material.

Considering that Westron was mainly a later form of Adunaic (Numenorean),
the information on Adunaic that was published in one of the later HoME
volumes (can't remember which one) ought to be sufficient to give an idea of
how the language sounded. I would imagine something akin to Semitic in
sound.