Depth of water at Isengard?

[Rory Molinari]

Hello,

I am reading LOTR again for the first time in a long time. Something
occurred to me while reading the sequence at Isengard, after the Battle
of Helm's Deep: how deep was the water after the Ents flooded the
circle, and how did Gríma cross it?

In _The Road to Isengard_ we get a description of the circle. Among
other things it says that

"One who passed [inside the ring-wall]...beheld a plain, a great
circle, somewhat hollowed like a vast shallow bowl."

So, the ground falls away gently from the wall towards the center of the
circle where the tower sits on a "peak and isle of rock". As the overall
impression of the circle is of a bowl, the ground must fall away by
several tens of feet, at least, from the ring wall. Otherwise it
wouldn't feel bowl-like on the half-mile scale from wall to tower.

Later, in _Flotsam and Jetsam_ we get a report of events from Merry and
Pippin, including the flooding of the circle.

"And still more water poured in, until at last Isengard looked like
a huge flat saucepan, all steaming and bubbling."

So the bowl of the circle is full of water. Since it is bowl-shaped, the
water must get deeper as one heads from the gate to the tower, until it
shallows again near the peak on which the tower sits.

Now, when Gríma arrives, he is sent by Treebeard to the tower even
though he says he can't swim (and for once I believe him); Treebeard
says that the "water is not deep".

So, how did he make it to the tower? At this point the waters are lower
than the gate (Merry says that "Since then [their drowning-scare in the
guardroom] the water has been sinking again", and Wormtongue arrived
"this morning"), but Gríma was still confronted with a view of "all the
floods that lay between him and Orthanc". To me this means that the
water hasn't fallen very much, and so must be tens of feet deep in
places. Maybe Wormtongue made it by clinging to the "old barrel or piece
of wood" that he found, but the water is still deep enough to drown him
and a non-swimmer might well panic, even holding onto a float. Treebeard
told him the water wasn't deep, and I don't think he is the sort to
drown someone with a lie.

Am I just taking things too literally?

Cheers,
Rory Molinari

[Sandman]

Post by Rory Molinari
Hello,
I am reading LOTR again for the first time in a long time. Something
occurred to me while reading the sequence at Isengard, after the
Battle of Helm's Deep: how deep was the water after the Ents flooded
the circle, and how did Gríma cross it?
In _The Road to Isengard_ we get a description of the circle. Among
other things it says that
"One who passed [inside the ring-wall]...beheld a plain, a great
circle, somewhat hollowed like a vast shallow bowl."
So, the ground falls away gently from the wall towards the center of
the circle where the tower sits on a "peak and isle of rock". As the
overall impression of the circle is of a bowl, the ground must fall
away by several tens of feet, at least, from the ring wall.
Otherwise it wouldn't feel bowl-like on the half-mile scale from
wall to tower.
Later, in _Flotsam and Jetsam_ we get a report of events from Merry
and Pippin, including the flooding of the circle.
"And still more water poured in, until at last Isengard looked like
a huge flat saucepan, all steaming and bubbling."
So the bowl of the circle is full of water. Since it is bowl-shaped,
the water must get deeper as one heads from the gate to the tower,
until it shallows again near the peak on which the tower sits.
Now, when Gríma arrives, he is sent by Treebeard to the tower even
though he says he can't swim (and for once I believe him); Treebeard
says that the "water is not deep".
So, how did he make it to the tower? At this point the waters are
lower than the gate (Merry says that "Since then [their
drowning-scare in the guardroom] the water has been sinking again",
and Wormtongue arrived "this morning"), but Gríma was still
confronted with a view of "all the floods that lay between him and
Orthanc". To me this means that the water hasn't fallen very much,
and so must be tens of feet deep in places. Maybe Wormtongue made it
by clinging to the "old barrel or piece of wood" that he found, but
the water is still deep enough to drown him and a non-swimmer might
well panic, even holding onto a float. Treebeard told him the water
wasn't deep, and I don't think he is the sort to drown someone with
a lie.
Am I just taking things too literally?

Possibly, but even so, the word "bowl" is just a general shape, not
necessarily a uniformly deepening circle. I.e. the walls themselves would
help the analogy, by being the high ridge of the plain. Your mistaken
conclusion is thus:

"As the overall impression of the circle is of a bowl, the ground must fall
away by several tens of feet, at least"

I don't think this is true at all. First, the ring is located in the valley,
which by itself is more or less a bowl. And the impression of a bowl would be
strengthened by this. I.e. if you're seeing a ring wall in a valley, it's not
far-fetched to think of it as a bowl even if the ground in it is perfectly
flat.

Also, even if it isn't flat, the ground most certainly didn't taper down
perfectly like a circular bowl. There may have been parts towards the middle
that were lower (due to the location in the valley) which at the time was
deeper.