Discussion:
Wars of the Ring and Roses
(too old to reply)
s***@gmail.com
2016-04-29 20:59:12 UTC
Permalink
JRRT set the LotR in a type of Medieval social setting complete with
liege-lords, fiefdoms, thains and Feudal Contracts such as Pippin's
compact with Denethor.

OTOH there are significant differences between our Middle Ages
and the Third Age of Middle Earth.

To explore the differences and similarities I decided to compare
some real Medieval history to Tolkien's LotR story. And for no particular
good reason I chose the Wars of the Roses, 1455-1487.

It was England's worst Kin-strife, a 30-year dynastic struggle between
two branches of the Royal Family (Lancaster and York) over the governance
of England, and it's quite a story. A lot of good folk were killed,
killed dead! If you'll believe me. The tale is perhaps not as entertaining
as the LotR; in fact the details rapidly become rather tedious as the war
drags on and the various kings, dukes and earls ally with and then betray
and feud with each other. But it does have the distinct advantage
of being for real.

It also lacks, on the least on the face of it, Tolkien's premise
of an ennobled contest between Virtue and Evil. In fact I have difficulty
distinguishing the Good Guys from the Bad -- or for that matter
identifying any Good Guys at all.

For instance I can't find anyone as wise, noble and virtuous as
Aragorn. Most of the characters are scheming, manipulative, treacherous
and outright murderous.

For instance, Richard III was clearly a villainous character for killing
his own nephews in the Tower, the child Edward V and younger brother,
but then so was his father Edward IV for the assassinations of Henry VI
and his son the Prince of Wales, but then Henry VI's grandfather had
deposed the rightful king Richard II and probably murdered him as well.

If one of the themes of LotR is the Absent King Scenario then 15th century
England often had one king too many.

As for the gals, they're not much better. Nowhere near as decent as Eowyn,
Galadriel or Arwen. Instead we get characters like Margaret of Anjou,
Elizabeth Woodville and Margaret Beaumont. Schemers, plotters and
conspirators, the lot of them.

SIMILARITIES
Here are just a few plot elements in common, where LR=LotR and
WR=Wars of the Roses:

* When allies and/or family members quarrel, the laughter of the Enemy
is their reward. The Enemy being:
LR: Mordor
WR: France (against which England had recently fought a 100-year war)

* As an example of the above, a powerful Noble with a private army occupies
the capital and usurps the throne. This actually happens some time before
the main story as a precursor:
LR: - Wulf of Westmarch captures Edoras, TA 2758 (the Fell Winter)
and declares himself King of Rohan
WR: Henry Bolingbroke, Duke of Lancaster deposes Richard II and takes
the throne as Henry IV, AD 1399

* Speaking of Richard II, downtrodden commoners rise up in protest:
LR: The Scouring of the Shire, TA 3019
WR: Peasant's Revolt led by Wat Tyler, AD 1387

* An ominous tower with a well-earned reputation of dread:
LR: Barad-Dur
WR: The Tower of London

* A cavalry charge led by a king:
LR: Battle of the Pelennor Fields
WR: Battle of Bosworth Field

* The king mentioned above is slain in the battle:
LR: Theodden of Rohan
WR: Richard III of England

* A claimant to the throne approaches the gates of the capital city and when
the citizens at large are asked, "Shall he be king and enter into the City
and dwell there?", all the host and all the people cry "YEA!" with one voice.
LR: Aragorn at Minas Tirith, TA 3019
WR: Edward IV (of York) at London, AD 1461

* Weakness and disorder in government impairs national defense which encourages
piracy and raids on the south coast by:
LR: The Corsairs of Umbar (during Gondor's Kin-strife, starting TA 1432)
WR: The French (~AD 1457)

* A claimant to the throne flees into exile after a lost battle:
LR: Eldacar after the seige of Osgiliath, TA 1437
WR: Henry Tudor, Earl of Richmond after the Battle of Tewkesbury, AD 1471

* The claimant returns from exile a decade or so later, defeats the usurping
king in battle and takes the throne:
LR: Eldacar kills Castamir at the Battle of the Crossings of Erui, TA 1447
WR: Henry defeats Richard III at Bosworth, AD 1485

* A regent refuses to accept the legitimate claim of the true heir
to the throne:
LR: Denetheor, Steward of Gondor / Aragorn
WR: Richard of Gloucester, Protector of England (later Richard III)
/ Edward, Prince of Wales; proclaimed Edward V, AD 1483

* The leader of a nation succumbs to madness:
LR: Denethor
WR: Henry VI

* Plague (as a factor in later events):
LR: TA 1636
WR: AD 1347


DIFFERENCES:

* No Roman Catholic Church in Middle Earth

* If Wizards arrive in England out of the Far West they are
not well documented

* There is no Quest.

Regards, SQ

ps. Of course the people of our own Middle Ages such as 15th century
England didn't consider their times to be some "intermediate" interval
between Antiquity and a "Modern" era -- for them their times WERE
the Modern Era.
Fred Smith
2016-04-29 21:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
JRRT set the LotR in a type of Medieval social setting complete with
liege-lords, fiefdoms, thains and Feudal Contracts such as Pippin's
compact with Denethor.
OTOH there are significant differences between our Middle Ages
and the Third Age of Middle Earth.
To explore the differences and similarities I decided to compare
some real Medieval history to Tolkien's LotR story. And for no particular
good reason I chose the Wars of the Roses, 1455-1487.
It was England's worst Kin-strife, a 30-year dynastic struggle between
two branches of the Royal Family (Lancaster and York) over the governance
of England, and it's quite a story. A lot of good folk were killed,
killed dead! If you'll believe me. The tale is perhaps not as entertaining
as the LotR; in fact the details rapidly become rather tedious as the war
drags on and the various kings, dukes and earls ally with and then betray
and feud with each other. But it does have the distinct advantage
of being for real.
It also lacks, on the least on the face of it, Tolkien's premise
of an ennobled contest between Virtue and Evil. In fact I have difficulty
distinguishing the Good Guys from the Bad -- or for that matter
identifying any Good Guys at all.
So it's really more like Game of Thrones?

And note the similarity of the author's names: J. R. R. Tolkien,
G. R. R. Martin. Coincidence?
John W Kennedy
2016-04-30 03:28:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
JRRT set the LotR in a type of Medieval social setting complete with
liege-lords, fiefdoms, thains and Feudal Contracts such as Pippin's
compact with Denethor.
OTOH there are significant differences between our Middle Ages
and the Third Age of Middle Earth.
To explore the differences and similarities I decided to compare
some real Medieval history to Tolkien's LotR story. And for no particular
good reason I chose the Wars of the Roses, 1455-1487.
It was England's worst Kin-strife, a 30-year dynastic struggle between
two branches of the Royal Family (Lancaster and York) over the governance
of England, and it's quite a story. A lot of good folk were killed,
killed dead! If you'll believe me. The tale is perhaps not as entertaining
as the LotR; in fact the details rapidly become rather tedious as the war
drags on and the various kings, dukes and earls ally with and then betray
and feud with each other. But it does have the distinct advantage
of being for real.
It also lacks, on the least on the face of it, Tolkien's premise
of an ennobled contest between Virtue and Evil. In fact I have difficulty
distinguishing the Good Guys from the Bad -- or for that matter
identifying any Good Guys at all.
For instance I can't find anyone as wise, noble and virtuous as
Aragorn. Most of the characters are scheming, manipulative, treacherous
and outright murderous.
For instance, Richard III was clearly a villainous character for killing
his own nephews in the Tower, the child Edward V and younger brother,
but then so was his father Edward IV for the assassinations of Henry VI
and his son the Prince of Wales, but then Henry VI's grandfather had
deposed the rightful king Richard II and probably murdered him as well.
If one of the themes of LotR is the Absent King Scenario then 15th century
England often had one king too many.
As for the gals, they're not much better. Nowhere near as decent as Eowyn,
Galadriel or Arwen. Instead we get characters like Margaret of Anjou,
Elizabeth Woodville and Margaret Beaumont. Schemers, plotters and
conspirators, the lot of them.
SIMILARITIES
Here are just a few plot elements in common, where LR=LotR and
* When allies and/or family members quarrel, the laughter of the Enemy
LR: Mordor
WR: France (against which England had recently fought a 100-year war)
* As an example of the above, a powerful Noble with a private army occupies
the capital and usurps the throne. This actually happens some time before
LR: - Wulf of Westmarch captures Edoras, TA 2758 (the Fell Winter)
and declares himself King of Rohan
WR: Henry Bolingbroke, Duke of Lancaster deposes Richard II and takes
the throne as Henry IV, AD 1399
LR: The Scouring of the Shire, TA 3019
WR: Peasant's Revolt led by Wat Tyler, AD 1387
LR: Barad-Dur
WR: The Tower of London
LR: Battle of the Pelennor Fields
WR: Battle of Bosworth Field
LR: Theodden of Rohan
WR: Richard III of England
* A claimant to the throne approaches the gates of the capital city and when
the citizens at large are asked, "Shall he be king and enter into the City
and dwell there?", all the host and all the people cry "YEA!" with one voice.
LR: Aragorn at Minas Tirith, TA 3019
WR: Edward IV (of York) at London, AD 1461
* Weakness and disorder in government impairs national defense which encourages
LR: The Corsairs of Umbar (during Gondor's Kin-strife, starting TA 1432)
WR: The French (~AD 1457)
LR: Eldacar after the seige of Osgiliath, TA 1437
WR: Henry Tudor, Earl of Richmond after the Battle of Tewkesbury, AD 1471
* The claimant returns from exile a decade or so later, defeats the usurping
LR: Eldacar kills Castamir at the Battle of the Crossings of Erui, TA 1447
WR: Henry defeats Richard III at Bosworth, AD 1485
* A regent refuses to accept the legitimate claim of the true heir
LR: Denetheor, Steward of Gondor / Aragorn
WR: Richard of Gloucester, Protector of England (later Richard III)
/ Edward, Prince of Wales; proclaimed Edward V, AD 1483
LR: Denethor
WR: Henry VI
LR: TA 1636
WR: AD 1347
* No Roman Catholic Church in Middle Earth
* If Wizards arrive in England out of the Far West they are
not well documented
* There is no Quest.
Regards, SQ
ps. Of course the people of our own Middle Ages such as 15th century
England didn't consider their times to be some "intermediate" interval
between Antiquity and a "Modern" era -- for them their times WERE
the Modern Era.
The parallel between Vidumavi, daughter of Vidugavia, and Elizabeth
Woodville is rather obvious.
--
John W Kennedy
"I want everybody to be smart. As smart as they can be. A world of
ignorant people is too dangerous to live in."
-- Garson Kanin. "Born Yesterday"
Jerry Friedman
2016-05-01 03:55:47 UTC
Permalink
On 4/29/16 2:59 PM, ***@gmail.com wrote:

[Wars of the Roses]
Post by s***@gmail.com
For instance I can't find anyone as wise, noble and virtuous as
Aragorn. Most of the characters are scheming, manipulative, treacherous
and outright murderous.
For instance, Richard III was clearly a villainous character for killing
his own nephews in the Tower,
...

Is that settled now?
--
Jerry Friedman
"No Trump" bridge-themed political shirts: cafepress.com/jerrysdesigns
Bumper stickers ditto: cafepress/jerrysstickers
John W Kennedy
2016-05-02 00:44:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
[Wars of the Roses]
Post by s***@gmail.com
For instance I can't find anyone as wise, noble and virtuous as
Aragorn. Most of the characters are scheming, manipulative, treacherous
and outright murderous.
For instance, Richard III was clearly a villainous character for killing
his own nephews in the Tower,
...
Is that settled now?
I doubt it will ever be settled for certain, but the rumor was flying
around in his lifetime, and he stonewalled; to my mind, that's fairly
damning.
--
John W Kennedy
"When a man contemplates forcing his own convictions down another man's
throat, he is contemplating both an unchristian act and an act of
treason to the United States."
-- Joy Davidman, "Smoke on the Mountain"
Jerry Friedman
2016-05-02 05:24:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by John W Kennedy
Post by Jerry Friedman
[Wars of the Roses]
Post by s***@gmail.com
For instance I can't find anyone as wise, noble and virtuous as
Aragorn. Most of the characters are scheming, manipulative, treacherous
and outright murderous.
For instance, Richard III was clearly a villainous character for killing
his own nephews in the Tower,
...
Is that settled now?
I doubt it will ever be settled for certain, but the rumor was flying
around in his lifetime, and he stonewalled; to my mind, that's fairly
damning.
Thanks, I see your point.
--
Jerry Friedman
"No Trump" bridge-themed political shirts: cafepress.com/jerrysdesigns
Bumper stickers ditto: cafepress/jerrysstickers
Louis Epstein
2016-06-11 18:17:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
* No Roman Catholic Church in Middle Earth
* If Wizards arrive in England out of the Far West they are
not well documented
That would certainly have made a difference.
Post by s***@gmail.com
* There is no Quest.
Nor was there during the Kin-Strife...

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