Restoring Moria

Post by Louis Epstein
After the Third Age,I've given thought to the problems attending the
restoration of Khazad-dum after all the damage.
On the Western side,there's an urgency to demolish the dam that provides
the Watcher with its Water,hope it gets killed in the flood,and help its
demise if it doesn't.
On the Eastern,Gandalf destroyed the only path across a 50-foot-wide
chasm.To restore access,I'm thinking that it would be necessary to create
a piece of joined wood perhaps 140-200 feet long that could be slid along
the floor until its perhaps somewhat tapered end crossed omto the far
side while its center of gravity remained securely on the near side,so
it would not tip into the gap.Staying level,it could then be advanced
further.This could then be traversed with the necessities of constructing
a new bridge.(Two of these might be used as main beams of a new bridge
but I am assuming a stone structure would be preferred).

I’m reasonably certain that dwarves are more sophisticaed engineers than
that. They’d probably use an arrow line to bootstrap a suspension bridge.

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

Louis Epstein

2017-02-12 13:38:34 UTC

I'm reasonably certain that dwarves are more sophisticaed engineers than
that. They'd probably use an arrow line to bootstrap a suspension
bridge.

When EVERYTHING is built of stone,what can an arrow penetrate?

A large open space with a bottomless pit across the middle.
Not a simple problem.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Julian Bradfield

2017-02-12 15:11:28 UTC

...

I'm reasonably certain that dwarves are more sophisticaed engineers than
that. They'd probably use an arrow line to bootstrap a suspension
bridge.

When EVERYTHING is built of stone,what can an arrow penetrate?
A large open space with a bottomless pit across the middle.
Not a simple problem.

But both sides are accessible by other routes. You don't need an arrow
to penetrate anything, you just need it to carry a line across.

Paul S. Person

2017-02-12 17:40:10 UTC

On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 15:11:28 +0000 (UTC), Julian Bradfield

Post by Julian Bradfield
...

I'm reasonably certain that dwarves are more sophisticaed engineers than
that. They'd probably use an arrow line to bootstrap a suspension
bridge.

When EVERYTHING is built of stone,what can an arrow penetrate?
A large open space with a bottomless pit across the middle.
Not a simple problem.

But both sides are accessible by other routes. You don't need an arrow
to penetrate anything, you just need it to carry a line across.

You don't even need a line.
You just start on each end and meet in the middle.
Granted, some really tall cranes might be involved ... but if you have
siege towers and catapults, you have cranes.

--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."

Louis Epstein

2017-02-12 18:07:13 UTC

Post by Julian Bradfield
...

I'm reasonably certain that dwarves are more sophisticaed engineers than
that. They'd probably use an arrow line to bootstrap a suspension
bridge.

When EVERYTHING is built of stone,what can an arrow penetrate?
A large open space with a bottomless pit across the middle.
Not a simple problem.

But both sides are accessible by other routes.

Accessible from opposite sides of a mountain range.
Not the best circumstances for coordinating work parties.

Post by Julian Bradfield
You don't need an arrow to penetrate anything, you just need it to
carry a line across.

The line has to be secured to something.
If you're all on one side of the gap who can do that?

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Julian Bradfield

2017-02-12 19:19:13 UTC

Post by Julian Bradfield
But both sides are accessible by other routes.

Accessible from opposite sides of a mountain range.
Not the best circumstances for coordinating work parties.

Post by Julian Bradfield
You don't need an arrow to penetrate anything, you just need it to
carry a line across.

The line has to be secured to something.
If you're all on one side of the gap who can do that?

You need one, just one, dwarf on the other side to make fast the line,
draw over the next line, followed by the rope bridge, and then you
can have as many people as you like on each side, hauling stuff over
by ropes.

For a major engineering project, having one engineer have to hike for
a few days is not a big deal.

Kevin K

2017-02-12 19:36:43 UTC

As long as dwarf throwing isn't seriously considered. :)

Steve Morrison

2017-02-12 20:56:51 UTC

Post by Kevin K
As long as dwarf throwing isn't seriously considered. :)

An eagle could take the line across easily!

Fred Smith

2017-02-12 22:16:53 UTC

Post by Steve Morrison

Post by Kevin K
As long as dwarf throwing isn't seriously considered. :)

An eagle could take the line across easily!

A Balrog with wings could fly over.

Louis Epstein

2017-02-12 19:44:05 UTC

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Julian Bradfield
But both sides are accessible by other routes.

Accessible from opposite sides of a mountain range.
Not the best circumstances for coordinating work parties.

Post by Julian Bradfield
You don't need an arrow to penetrate anything, you just need it to
carry a line across.

The line has to be secured to something.
If you're all on one side of the gap who can do that?

You need one, just one, dwarf on the other side to make fast the line,
draw over the next line, followed by the rope bridge, and then you
can have as many people as you like on each side, hauling stuff over
by ropes.
For a major engineering project, having one engineer have to hike for
a few days is not a big deal.

Over a possibly lethal mountain pass and through severely damaged
internal infrastructure?

There would need to be a lot of work just figuring out what chambers
or stairs could be repaired and which avoided as hazards.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

John W Kennedy

2017-02-13 02:40:51 UTC

Post by Julian Bradfield

Post by Julian Bradfield
But both sides are accessible by other routes.

Accessible from opposite sides of a mountain range.
Not the best circumstances for coordinating work parties.

Post by Julian Bradfield
You don't need an arrow to penetrate anything, you just need it to
carry a line across.

The line has to be secured to something.
If you're all on one side of the gap who can do that?

You need one, just one, dwarf on the other side to make fast the line,
draw over the next line, followed by the rope bridge, and then you
can have as many people as you like on each side, hauling stuff over
by ropes.
For a major engineering project, having one engineer have to hike for
a few days is not a big deal.

All of which has to be done anyway, if Khazad-dûm is to live again, and
if the trade necessary to its function is to be restored—and, for that
matter, if the bridge is to be of any actual use.

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

Paul S. Person

2017-02-13 17:34:31 UTC

On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 18:07:13 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein

Post by Julian Bradfield
You don't need an arrow to penetrate anything, you just need it to
carry a line across.

The line has to be secured to something.
If you're all on one side of the gap who can do that?

I'm slowly moving through my Batman movies (one every six days) in my
nightly rotation, and I would think that /they/ wouldn't have any
problem shooting out one of their lines with a grapple on the end and
swinging across.

It might take a few tries and a special arrowhead, but it could
probably be done.

And, to counter the obvious next objection, the special arrowhead
contains a swivel around which the line is attached, so that larger
lines can be pulled across and back until something strong enough to
support a Dwarf (about 600 lbs, to judge from Gimli-in-armor) while
he/she traverses the gap.

Of course, as others have pointed out, bridging the gap could just as
easily be the last step in a reclamation project that began at the
other end.

And there is still the concept of a really large crane -- perhaps one
big enough to place a basket containing a Dwarf on the other side.

--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."

Troels Forchhammer

2017-04-15 14:17:47 UTC

<snip>

Restoring the Bridge of Khazad-Dûm

Post by Julian Bradfield
But both sides are accessible by other routes.

Accessible from opposite sides of a mountain range.
Not the best circumstances for coordinating work parties.

It is, in my view, fairly obvious that there are other routes. The Orcs
who were "trapped" on the western side of the chasm were not in actual
fact trapped in Moria -- they got out within a few hours of the party
leaving Moria, suggesting that there were other exits. More hidden and
probably narrow -- a kind of posterns, quite likely -- but certainly it
would be possible for a group of Dwarves to reach the other side of the
chasm within a few hours (unless, of course, they would still have to
fight their way through).

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was
standing on the shoulders of giants.
- Sir Isaac Newton

bill van

2017-02-12 19:49:13 UTC

I'm reasonably certain that dwarves are more sophisticaed engineers than
that. They'd probably use an arrow line to bootstrap a suspension
bridge.

When EVERYTHING is built of stone,what can an arrow penetrate?
A large open space with a bottomless pit across the middle.
Not a simple problem.

If you could tame a cave troll, it could toss a few dwarves with ropes
attached.

--
bill

Dan C

2017-02-12 19:51:12 UTC

Post by Louis Epstein
After the Third Age,I've given thought to the problems attending the
restoration of Khazad-dum after all the damage.
On the Western side,there's an urgency to demolish the dam that
provides the Watcher with its Water,hope it gets killed in the
flood,and help its demise if it doesn't.
On the Eastern,Gandalf destroyed the only path across a 50-foot-wide
chasm.To restore access,I'm thinking that it would be necessary to
create a piece of joined wood perhaps 140-200 feet long that could be
slid along the floor until its perhaps somewhat tapered end crossed
omto the far side while its center of gravity remained securely on the
near side,so it would not tip into the gap.Staying level,it could then
be advanced further.This could then be traversed with the necessities
of constructing a new bridge.(Two of these might be used as main beams
of a new bridge but I am assuming a stone structure would be
preferred).

I'm reasonably certain that dwarves are more sophisticaed engineers
than that. They'd probably use an arrow line to bootstrap a suspension
bridge.

When EVERYTHING is built of stone,what can an arrow penetrate?
A large open space with a bottomless pit across the middle.
Not a simple problem.

Not simple, but not that complicated, either.

And the pit is not bottomless.

--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
"Bother!" said Pooh, as he harpooned Flipper.
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
Thanks, Obama: Loading Image...

Louis Epstein

2017-02-13 00:13:42 UTC

Post by Louis Epstein
After the Third Age,I've given thought to the problems attending the
restoration of Khazad-dum after all the damage.
On the Western side,there's an urgency to demolish the dam that
provides the Watcher with its Water,hope it gets killed in the
flood,and help its demise if it doesn't.
On the Eastern,Gandalf destroyed the only path across a 50-foot-wide
chasm.To restore access,I'm thinking that it would be necessary to
create a piece of joined wood perhaps 140-200 feet long that could be
slid along the floor until its perhaps somewhat tapered end crossed
omto the far side while its center of gravity remained securely on the
near side,so it would not tip into the gap.Staying level,it could then
be advanced further.This could then be traversed with the necessities
of constructing a new bridge.(Two of these might be used as main beams
of a new bridge but I am assuming a stone structure would be
preferred).

I'm reasonably certain that dwarves are more sophisticaed engineers
than that. They'd probably use an arrow line to bootstrap a suspension
bridge.

When EVERYTHING is built of stone,what can an arrow penetrate?
A large open space with a bottomless pit across the middle.
Not a simple problem.

Not simple, but not that complicated, either.
And the pit is not bottomless.

The way it's described,it is functionally so.
No mortal could survive trying to reach the bottom,
or find a way back up.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Paul S. Person

2017-02-13 17:36:03 UTC

On Mon, 13 Feb 2017 00:13:42 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein

Post by Dan C
And the pit is not bottomless.

The way it's described,it is functionally so.
No mortal could survive trying to reach the bottom,
or find a way back up.

Now, here we agree: to all intents and purposes, it is bottomless.

--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."

Dan C

2017-02-26 03:56:19 UTC

Post by Paul S. Person
On Mon, 13 Feb 2017 00:13:42 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein

Post by Dan C
And the pit is not bottomless.

The way it's described,it is functionally so.
No mortal could survive trying to reach the bottom,
or find a way back up.

Now, here we agree: to all intents and purposes, it is bottomless.

Which changes nothing, in regards to the engineering task of crossing the
gap.

--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
"Bother!" said Pooh, as the dirigible popped.
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
Thanks, Obama: http://brandybuck.site40.net/pics/politica/thanks.jpg

Paul S. Person

2017-02-26 17:52:45 UTC

Post by Paul S. Person
On Mon, 13 Feb 2017 00:13:42 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein

Post by Dan C
And the pit is not bottomless.

The way it's described,it is functionally so.
No mortal could survive trying to reach the bottom,
or find a way back up.

Now, here we agree: to all intents and purposes, it is bottomless.

Which changes nothing, in regards to the engineering task of crossing the
gap.

Oh, I don't know.

If it were only, say, five feet deep, that would seem to simplify the
problem.

--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."

Dan C

2017-03-15 03:35:20 UTC

Post by Paul S. Person
On Mon, 13 Feb 2017 00:13:42 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein

Post by Dan C
And the pit is not bottomless.

The way it's described,it is functionally so.
No mortal could survive trying to reach the bottom,
or find a way back up.

Now, here we agree: to all intents and purposes, it is bottomless.

Which changes nothing, in regards to the engineering task of crossing
the gap.

Oh, I don't know.
If it were only, say, five feet deep, that would seem to simplify the
problem.

Well, that's a pretty silly exaggeration.

So, once again, back to the point. Would it be any easier to cross if it
were only 10,000 meters deep, rather than "bottomless"?

--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
"Bother!" said Pooh, as the Facehugger impregnated him.
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
Thanks, Obama: http://brandybuck.site40.net/pics/politica/thanks.jpg

John W Kennedy

2017-03-15 15:07:03 UTC

Post by Paul S. Person
On Mon, 13 Feb 2017 00:13:42 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein

Post by Dan C
And the pit is not bottomless.

The way it's described,it is functionally so.
No mortal could survive trying to reach the bottom,
or find a way back up.

Now, here we agree: to all intents and purposes, it is bottomless.

Which changes nothing, in regards to the engineering task of crossing
the gap.

Oh, I don't know.
If it were only, say, five feet deep, that would seem to simplify the
problem.

Well, that's a pretty silly exaggeration.
So, once again, back to the point. Would it be any easier to cross if it
were only 10,000 meters deep, rather than "bottomless"?

Seeing that this is after the fall of Ar-Pharazon, “bottomless” has to
be rhetorical, anyway.

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

Paul S. Person

2017-03-15 16:32:05 UTC

On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 11:07:03 -0400, John W Kennedy

Post by Paul S. Person
On Mon, 13 Feb 2017 00:13:42 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein

Post by Dan C
And the pit is not bottomless.

The way it's described,it is functionally so.
No mortal could survive trying to reach the bottom,
or find a way back up.

Now, here we agree: to all intents and purposes, it is bottomless.

Which changes nothing, in regards to the engineering task of crossing
the gap.

Oh, I don't know.
If it were only, say, five feet deep, that would seem to simplify the
problem.

Well, that's a pretty silly exaggeration.
So, once again, back to the point. Would it be any easier to cross if it
were only 10,000 meters deep, rather than "bottomless"?

Seeing that this is after the fall of Ar-Pharazon, bottomless has to
be rhetorical, anyway.

True, true ... and at any geologically significant depth it would get
increasingly ... hot ... and liquid rock might also be encountered at
some point.

--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."

Paul S. Person

2017-03-15 16:30:47 UTC

Post by Paul S. Person
On Mon, 13 Feb 2017 00:13:42 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein

Post by Dan C
And the pit is not bottomless.

The way it's described,it is functionally so.
No mortal could survive trying to reach the bottom,
or find a way back up.

Now, here we agree: to all intents and purposes, it is bottomless.

Which changes nothing, in regards to the engineering task of crossing
the gap.

Oh, I don't know.
If it were only, say, five feet deep, that would seem to simplify the
problem.

Well, that's a pretty silly exaggeration.

No, it is an example of a depth which would clearly pose no problem.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it "silly". Or an
"exaggeration". It makes the point.

Post by Dan C
So, once again, back to the point. Would it be any easier to cross if it
were only 10,000 meters deep, rather than "bottomless"?

That depends on how many 10,001 meter steel beems the Dwarfs can
produce.

For the scaffolding along the sides, to support the ladders that lead
to the bottom.

Of course, an alternative would be to /bury/ u-shaped beams adjacent
to the chasm to anchor them securely and then built a temporary
structure out from there. They would have to keep the
center-of-balance of any beam used to temporarily bridge the chasm
firmly on their side, but that just requires enough space, which they
can create with their tunneling skills.

And, again, they could /start/ at the other end and /wait/ until they
had workers on both sides before beginning. All they would need then
is a rope, thrown from one side, that stays on the ground long enough
to be picked up on the other. From that they can do whatever it takes
to build a bridge.

--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."

Stan Brown

2017-03-18 01:03:16 UTC

Post by Paul S. Person
On Mon, 13 Feb 2017 00:13:42 +0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein

Post by Dan C
And the pit is not bottomless.

The way it's described,it is functionally so.
No mortal could survive trying to reach the bottom,
or find a way back up.

Now, here we agree: to all intents and purposes, it is bottomless.

Which changes nothing, in regards to the engineering task of crossing
the gap.

Oh, I don't know.
If it were only, say, five feet deep, that would seem to simplify the
problem.

Well, that's a pretty silly exaggeration.
So, once again, back to the point. Would it be any easier to cross if it
were only 10,000 meters deep, rather than "bottomless"?

Or 10 meters deep?

There you go again, using logic!

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://BrownMath.com/
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
Tolkien letters FAQ: http://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

Dan C

2017-02-26 03:55:53 UTC

Post by Louis Epstein
After the Third Age,I've given thought to the problems attending the
restoration of Khazad-dum after all the damage.
On the Western side,there's an urgency to demolish the dam that
provides the Watcher with its Water,hope it gets killed in the
flood,and help its demise if it doesn't.
On the Eastern,Gandalf destroyed the only path across a 50-foot-wide
chasm.To restore access,I'm thinking that it would be necessary to
create a piece of joined wood perhaps 140-200 feet long that could
be slid along the floor until its perhaps somewhat tapered end
crossed omto the far side while its center of gravity remained
securely on the near side,so it would not tip into the gap.Staying
level,it could then be advanced further.This could then be traversed
with the necessities of constructing a new bridge.(Two of these
might be used as main beams of a new bridge but I am assuming a
stone structure would be preferred).

I'm reasonably certain that dwarves are more sophisticaed engineers
than that. They'd probably use an arrow line to bootstrap a
suspension bridge.

When EVERYTHING is built of stone,what can an arrow penetrate?
A large open space with a bottomless pit across the middle.
Not a simple problem.

Not simple, but not that complicated, either.
And the pit is not bottomless.

The way it's described,it is functionally so.
No mortal could survive trying to reach the bottom,
or find a way back up.

Whether a mortal could reach the bottom, or come back up, is completely
irrelevant to this discussion. Stick to the point, which was how to cross
the large gap. Whether it's bottomless or not has nothing to do with the
engineering task of getting over it.

--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
"Bother!" said Pooh, as he rolled off the prostitute.
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
Thanks, Obama: http://brandybuck.site40.net/pics/politica/thanks.jpg

Wayne Brown

2017-02-14 14:25:28 UTC

I'm reasonably certain that dwarves are more sophisticaed engineers than
that. They'd probably use an arrow line to bootstrap a suspension
bridge.

When EVERYTHING is built of stone,what can an arrow penetrate?
A large open space with a bottomless pit across the middle.
Not a simple problem.

That large open space has a roof. It might be possible to get up
there and anchor lines to the ceiling, either by climbing the walls or
by digging down through the ceiling if there are other open chambers
above it.

--
F. Wayne Brown <***@bellsouth.net>

ur sag9-ga ur-tur-še3 ba-an-kur9
"A dog that is played with turns into a puppy." (Sumerian proverb)

s***@gmail.com

2017-02-15 15:24:59 UTC